"The color goes kind of crazy"

Open, general discussion of silent films, personalities and history.
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Danny Burk

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Re: Not only the color goes kind of crazy . . .

PostMon Sep 12, 2011 6:53 pm

CoffeeDan wrote:Providing a separate thread or forum for colorizations is a good idea (that's a "yes" vote, moderators), but it raises another question: How do we approach the hand-colored stills, paintings, color photographs, and other authentic colored artifacts from the past? Do those go in the colorization discussions as well, or can they be posted in the regular threads as long as they are properly labeled? Do we make a distinction between period and modern colorization?


My first idea was to say that everything to which color has been added should go into the new thread, regardless of its age. I'm now having second thoughts, since it seems that a suitable "companion" thread would be one to illustrate vintage posters, lobby cards, and other advertising material. We don't really have a dedicated spot for this, and I think it would be a nice area to show our treasures. This would keep vintage material in one convenient location, and allow both threads to coexist under the "Collecting and Preservation" heading. I suppose that vintage hand-colored postcards fall somewhere between the two, but let's put those into the broad grouping of colorized photos since a similar technique has been employed for both, whether new or old.

If everyone likes the idea of this second "companion" thread, let me know here and I'll create both at the same time.

Photos that were originally shot in color can continue to be placed within other threads, by the way.
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bobfells

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Re: "The color goes kind of crazy"

PostMon Sep 12, 2011 6:56 pm

Gagman 66 wrote:Bob,

One thing that I don't think the cynics here are taking into account is this. Look at Color photos in old movie magazines. Not from the 20's mind you, but the 40's and 50's. Even the 60's. Many of them frankly look Colorized. The color is frequently not very good, with often yellowish and or Orangy Skin-tones. Recently a guy posted over 200 photos on the TCM forums from vintage Movie Mags, all supposedly taken in Natural color. Many of them look like very poor colorizations. Don't know if this is the magazine's fault, printers, film used, or what the story is? I'll post a few here to give people an example of just what I am talking about. It could prove to be rather an eye-opener.


I'll look forward to seeing these photos Gagman, but I doubt they will change the viewpoint of the "cynics" as you call them. When people cannot articulate their views but rely on profanity to express themselves, there's not much between the ears.
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Gagman 66

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Re: "The color goes kind of crazy"

PostMon Sep 12, 2011 6:58 pm

Frank,

:roll: That's just the point. It isn't supposed to be perfect. The news print Color in those 40's and 50's mags certainly isn't. Not even close. Although, I strive for as much perfection as possible. I am very, very picky. You people who have never tried this apparently seem to believe it's like a Color by number process or something. Choose a color, designate where you want it to go, and have the computer automatically fill in those areas. Well, that isn't how it's done. It's allot more complicated and demanding than that.
Last edited by Gagman 66 on Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "The color goes kind of crazy"

PostMon Sep 12, 2011 7:06 pm

bobfells wrote:When people cannot articulate their views but rely on profanity to express themselves, there's not much between the ears.


Mr. Fells,
If you want to attack me please do so by name and don't hide behind a curtain, just as I didn't hide when I told you and Gaggy your colorizations are terrible.

And your BS about profanity; I can speak English and be very articulate, but sometimes swearing cuts right to the point and makes the most sense.

Yer pal,
Louie
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Gagman 66

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Re: "The color goes kind of crazy"

PostMon Sep 12, 2011 7:20 pm

Louie,

:roll: Cut right to the chase? You would not like what several people on Golden Silents recently had to say about your vaunted Idol either. :lol: You'd definitely be pulling out another batch of trusty Profane grumbles all over again.
Last edited by Gagman 66 on Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "The color goes kind of crazy"

PostMon Sep 12, 2011 7:25 pm

Gagman 66 wrote:Louie,

:roll: Cut right to the chase? You would not like what several people on Golden Silents recently had to say about your vaunted Idol either. :lol: You'd definitely be pulling out another batch of Profane grumbles all over again.


I could really care less what people have to say about El at all. Most of them are dopes who have only seen one of his movies or listen to what other "critics" have said. I personally think he's funny.
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Gagman 66

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Re: "The color goes kind of crazy"

PostMon Sep 12, 2011 7:30 pm

:? I forgot that he was in WINGS. Anybody record that Betty Compson movie on TCM this morning?
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Re: "The color goes kind of crazy"

PostMon Sep 12, 2011 7:44 pm

"Time to post some [email protected]$^ing colorized El Brendel pics, I say."

Do the nudie one!

We have heated arguments about frame rate differences of 2-4fps. Of course we're gonna criticize colorizing.

A dedicated thread is a good idea. "Photoshop Ghetto," perhaps? :twisted:
When I first opened this thread, I was expecting some interesting tech thing or oddity, but no...
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Re: "The color goes kind of crazy"

PostMon Sep 12, 2011 8:05 pm

I (for one) am going to unsubscribe from this thread, I want no further responsibility for anything that happens.
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Lokke Heiss

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Re: "The color goes kind of crazy"

PostMon Sep 12, 2011 8:10 pm

All these years I've nursed a hatred toward movies shot after 1965 because so many of them are in color. Can we have a thread that has only photos that were originally in color, but have had the color removed, and replaced with a black&white, silvery, nitrate glow?
"You can't top pigs with pigs."

Walt Disney, responding to someone who asked him why he didn't immediately do a sequel to The Three Little Pigs
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Re: Not only the color goes kind of crazy . . .

PostMon Sep 12, 2011 8:23 pm

Danny Burk wrote:
CoffeeDan wrote:Providing a separate thread or forum for colorizations is a good idea (that's a "yes" vote, moderators), but it raises another question: How do we approach the hand-colored stills, paintings, color photographs, and other authentic colored artifacts from the past? Do those go in the colorization discussions as well, or can they be posted in the regular threads as long as they are properly labeled? Do we make a distinction between period and modern colorization?


My first idea was to say that everything to which color has been added should go into the new thread, regardless of its age. I'm now having second thoughts, since it seems that a suitable "companion" thread would be one to illustrate vintage posters, lobby cards, and other advertising material. We don't really have a dedicated spot for this, and I think it would be a nice area to show our treasures. This would keep vintage material in one convenient location, and allow both threads to coexist under the "Collecting and Preservation" heading. I suppose that vintage hand-colored postcards fall somewhere between the two, but let's put those into the broad grouping of colorized photos since a similar technique has been employed for both, whether new or old.

If everyone likes the idea of this second "companion" thread, let me know here and I'll create both at the same time.

Photos that were originally shot in color can continue to be placed within other threads, by the way.


This might be overkill. The original point was fairly clear: some folks like to post black and white images that they have colorised, and also to discuss the process of colorisation. Some folks prefer not to see them, or to hear these conversations, so allowing them to go into a dedicated area is sensible.

This is a different issue to people including pictures of vintage items - black, white, purple or whatever - that relate to films or people they're discussing as part of a thread. So long as they're relevant, I've never heard anyone complain about that.

Speaking for myself, I would probably have more interest in reading a thread about Film X rather than a thread called `Here Are 21 Different Items Relating to Film X'.
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Re: "The color goes kind of crazy"

PostMon Sep 12, 2011 8:57 pm

Right. The difference of opinion isn't over any photos that have at one time been colored, but rather those that are currently being done by NitrateVille hobbyists who want to share their efforts with interested others. Since it's a specific interest area, my feeling is that a separate forum would work better than a thread in one of the others. Sort of like the tech talk forum.
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Re: "The color goes kind of crazy"

PostMon Sep 12, 2011 9:19 pm

OK, if there's no wish for a "vintage collectibles" thread, we don't have to have it. My thought was that it could be an ongoing thing, encouraging owners of lobby cards and posters to add to an online "collection". Something for everyone's viewing pleasure, nothing more than that.

Since we're making the new thread based on majority opinion, if everyone is OK with allowing vintage hand-colored items as part of regular threads, I'm fine with that.

An entirely separate forum isn't really practical; Mike has specifically remarked (on an earlier occasion) that he prefers not to create too many "specialty" forums, and I agree. I'll start an ongoing thread within "Collecting and Preservation", and those who do/don't want to view it can do as they choose.
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Re: "The color goes kind of crazy"

PostMon Sep 12, 2011 9:27 pm

:? I would sincerely hope that everyone can agree that Bob's picture of Bogart there, the one with the Cig, is truly fantastic work! If not, than they are just being stubborn pain's in the rump! Because It is fabulous. 99% of people seeing it for the first time would admit to such. Now the Stan and Ollie? Err, not so much. Incidentally, I made the same mistake on Camilla Horn, with the same photo. Her eyes were actually Brown, not Blue. A surprise to me. The one of Gilbert and Mary Astor I had never seen before. Almost didn't recognize Jack. He looks so thin in the face.
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Danny Burk

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Re: "The color goes kind of crazy"

PostMon Sep 12, 2011 9:54 pm

There's really no point in waiting till Tuesday evening to create the new thread, since it's clearly wanted by the majority.

It's now active, titled "Color from Black-and-White: colorized photos" within the Collecting and Preservation forum.

Please post all future colorized photos only to that thread. Those who like it, have at it.....those who don't like it, stay away!
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Re: "The color goes kind of crazy"

PostTue Sep 13, 2011 4:35 am

Danny Burk wrote:those who don't like it, stay away!


Will do!
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Re: "The color goes kind of crazy"

PostTue Sep 13, 2011 7:21 am

I can see it coming...one forum for (black and) whites, one forum for coloreds - "separate yet equal". But make no mistake - we shall overchrome!
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Re: "The color goes kind of crazy"

PostTue Sep 13, 2011 7:26 am

Arndt wrote:I can see it coming...one forum for (black and) whites, one forum for coloreds - "separate yet equal". But make no mistake - we shall overchrome!


Very good, sir!
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Re: "The color goes kind of crazy"

PostTue Sep 13, 2011 8:44 am

bobfells wrote:
Arndt wrote:I can see it coming...one forum for (black and) whites, one forum for coloreds - "separate yet equal". But make no mistake - we shall overchrome!


Very good, sir!


Second!
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Re: "The color goes kind of crazy"

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Gagman 66

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Re: "The color goes kind of crazy"

PostTue Sep 13, 2011 2:32 pm

:o Although they may look like it, the following photos are NOT Colorized. Rather they are from the Vintage 40's and 50's Fan Magazines that I had mentioned earlier. Can anyone tell who this first girl is? She sure is pretty. Point is I am seeing the exact same garish type colors here that people are complaining make the Colorized photos look unrealistic. Well, that just isn't the case. What people like Bob and myself have been doing in-fact looks pretty comparable to what had been the industry standard for many years. It's also obvious that photos frequently were cut out and pasted on solid color backgrounds, and that this was a standard practice back in the day. Not much different than the effect that many of the photos that I have worked on have.I also think there is allot of artificial enhancement, often not for the better of certain colors, especially with clothes that was fairly common practice by these magazines.


Image


Image

Linda Darnell


Image

Linda Darnell


Image

Linda Darnell


Image

Alan Ladd


Image

Betty Grable


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Guy Madison


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Burt Lancaster


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Patrica Neal


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Peter Lawford


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Jean Craine


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Greer Garson


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Greer Garson



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Susan Peters


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Susan Peters


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Jane Powell


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Dorothy LaMour


Image

Dorothy LaMour


Image

Ann Sheridan


Image

Lucille Ball
Last edited by Gagman 66 on Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: "The color goes kind of crazy"

PostTue Sep 13, 2011 3:40 pm

Gagman 66 wrote:What people like Bob and myself have been doing in-fact looks pretty comparable to what had been the industry standard for many years. It's also obvious that photos frequently were cut out and pasted on solid color backgrounds, and that this was a standard practice back in the day. Not much different than the effect that many of the photos that I have worked on have.I also think there is allot of artificial enhancement, often not for the better of certain colors, especially with clothes that was fairly common practice by these magazines.


If you really think this, then you should seek professional help.
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Re: "The color goes kind of crazy"

PostTue Sep 13, 2011 3:59 pm

Gagman 66 wrote::o Although they may look like it, the following photos are NOT Colorized. Rather they are from the Vintage 40's and 50's Fan Magazines that I had mentioned earlier. Can anyone tell who this first girl is? She sure is pretty. Point is I am seeing the exact same garish type colors here that people are complaining make the Colorized photos look unrealistic. Well, that just isn't the case. What people like Bob and myself have been doing in-fact looks pretty comparable to what had been the industry standard for many years. It's also obvious that photos frequently were cut out and pasted on solid color backgrounds, and that this was a standard practice back in the day. Not much different than the effect that many of the photos that I have worked on have.I also think there is allot of artificial enhancement, often not for the better of certain colors, especially with clothes that was fairly common practice by these magazines.




Passive-aggressive much?
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Gagman 66

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Re: "The color goes kind of crazy"

PostTue Sep 13, 2011 4:01 pm

:? Yes, I do really think this. What I see is Linda Darnell with yellow skin, garish backgrounds, Alan Ladd with an Orange face, impossible hair colors and what have you. Guy Madison should not look like a China-men. But he does. Take a gander at Burt's Hair! How about Patricia Neal's? Susan Peters is Beat Red! Do you honestly think that Greer Garson's Fur Boa is actually that shade? ?? Come on now. Maybe these are not the best examples. There are plenty of other photos that I could have posted to prove my point. It's clear you wouldn't admit to anything in either case.
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Re: "The color goes kind of crazy"

PostTue Sep 13, 2011 4:12 pm

Gagman 66 wrote::? Yes, I do really think this. What I see is Linda Darnell with yellow skin, garish backgrounds, Alan Ladd with an Orange face, impossible hair colors and what have you. Guy Madison should not look like a China-men. But he does. Take a gander at Burt's Hair! How about Patricia Neal's? Maybe these are not the best examples. There are plenty of other photos that I could have posted that prove my point. It's clear you wouldn't admit to anything in either case.


You just don't get it do you? These look NOTHING like the photos you and Mr. Fells have been posting here. These are most likely Kodachrome's that recently sold on ebay:

Image
Ruth Hussey

Image
Veronica Lake

Image
Ginger Rogers

NOW, no way do these originals look anything like what you are doing.
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Gagman 66

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Re: "The color goes kind of crazy"

PostTue Sep 13, 2011 4:26 pm

:? I never said that they were originals. But they are how they were printed in the magazines. So that is what most people got to see. Since you have only seen a very small fraction of my own work, how would you know enough about it to judge? I have several photos I colorized of Connie Marshall and Ava Gardner, Ginger Rogers too, and no one knew that they were colorized. No one! Nice group of photos. Thanks for posting them. All three were new to me.
Last edited by Gagman 66 on Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "The color goes kind of crazy"

PostTue Sep 13, 2011 4:32 pm

Gagman 66 wrote:Since you have only seen a very small fraction of my own work, how would you know enough about it to judge?


I have probably seen over 50 here, how many more bad jobs do I need to see?

I have several photos I colorized of Connie Marshall and Eva Gardiner, Ginger Rogers too, and no one knew that they were colorized. No one!


I find this absolutely hard to believe as I have yet to see any colorized photo from a black & white positive that you couldn't tell had color added.

Nice group of photos. Thanks for posting them. All three were new to me.


Thanks, kid!
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Re: "The color goes kind of crazy"

PostTue Sep 13, 2011 4:34 pm

If I gave Ruth Hussey that hair color, I'd be shot at sunrise. And the lipstick on the gals look like its on steroids. I suspect this discussion might be more productive if we could all see these photos on the same monitor. Just going into Best Buy and looking at the same movie shown simultaneously on several monitors shows a variety of results. Gagman, the photos you provided look more like paintings and I suspect they were copied with a cheap printing process. Louie, the photos you provided are stunning but garish in their own way, certainly not "natural," whatever that is. But I love original color photos and when I started looking at certain b/w photos and wondered what they might look like in color... well, you know the rest. At the risk of repeating myself, I'm not trying to attract all of us folks who are already fans. I'm trying to get the X and Y Generations who look at b/w photos and just tune out. They are the future of vintage films.
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Re: "The color goes kind of crazy"

PostTue Sep 13, 2011 5:07 pm

Younger folk don't tune out when they hear "black-and-white" (see the wild success of Beyonce's Single Ladies); they tune out when they hear "old." A while back, I asked a friend to a movie, and his first question was, "Is it old?" Wouldn't even entertain the thought of seeing Play Time in 70mm (but Tron: Legacy had 'great 3D and was lots of fun!'). Similarly, my last roommate would only go to brand-new movies (and then complain). :roll:
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Re: "The color goes kind of crazy"

PostTue Sep 13, 2011 5:56 pm

bobfells wrote:Louie, the photos you provided are stunning but garish in their own way, certainly not "natural," whatever that is.


They're "garish" in the same way IB Technicolor was "garish." As in the films, the subjects were made up and dressed, and the settings were specifically color-designed to present a style that was in vogue at the time which, among other things, favored richly-saturated color. "Natural" wasn't the aim. Do people complain when they go to Yosemite and it doesn't look like an Ansel Adams photograph?

What ticks most people off is not so much what you guys are doing as it is the manner in which you're promoting, justifying and also defending your work. There's the repeated insistence that images are deficient simply because they're in black-and-white and that improving them and making them more "natural;" criticism is derided because so many people elsewhere are said to like the results, or that period examples are just as bad or worse; the implication is that you're being picked on unfairly. Look, everybody has a right to have a hobby they enjoy, nobody's quarreling with that; but to imply, and even explicitly state that your pastime is part of some nobler pursuit, and then feel affronted because not everyone goes along with that, or to take umbrage when your efforts that you voluntarily expose to public scrutiny are criticized, it can quite understandably rub people the wrong way.
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