Tweet MARION DAVIES FAMILY

And in the "I found it on the internet so it must be true" category, someone has entered a family tree onto ancestry for Marion Davies, showing her husbands as Charles Spencer Chaplin and William Randolph Hearst. IT'S MILLER TIME!!

Har! Best laff I've had all day.

My last post disappeared.....

Anyway..... far too many loose ends, red herrings, rumors, and incorrect information to ever really know. As I said a while back, I'd like to think Pat was Marion's daughter, but short of DNA testing, it can never be proved, and that's ok.

Apparently the real source of the rumor is from the Lake son, who reported what Pat said on her death bed in 1993. Rumor begets rumor.

As for the resemblance between Pat and Hearst??? I sure don't see it but maybe others do.....

Oh dear, another deathbed confession. I doubt DNA testing (assuming you could get the court order necessary to force such a test, and that you had the samples necessary to do the comparison) would give you much, either--Marion and Rose were sisters. But again just for the heck of it, I noodled around on Ancestry and checked Proquest's papers, the NYTimes specifically. Marion, Rose, Van Cleve, Rose the Elder, and Reine all returned from Europe on the Mauretania, 23 June 1922. (Marion has shaved a couple of years off her age, the little minx.) That seems to be the time period usually discussed, isn't it? I'm not that familiar with the story's details.

On April 30, 1922, the New York Times has an article on the Carnival of Motion Picture Folk for the Association for Improving the Condition of the Poor, which started with a parade of movie stars down Broadway--Marion is listed as participating in this parade. That might be a reporting error, but if it isn't an error, it does not seem that Marion was hiding her advanced pregnancy under a bushel.

Now, if we want to talk conspiracy, how about this? On 21 Dec 1937, Rose Van Cleve again shows up in Ancestry on a NY ship arrival manifest, and the same sheet also lists Joseph Pulitzer and his wife! HAH! HAH, I SAY!! MEDIA BARON COLLUSION! CORRUPTION!! CONSPIRACY!!

Great info...... it all just gets more and more...... MORE

I doubt DNA testing (assuming you could get the court order necessary to force such a test, and that you had the samples necessary to do the comparison) would give you much, either--Marion and Rose were sisters.

Yes

Looks like MARJ to me

The DNA could easily sort out the daughter/cousin/whatever question. The more relevant question is getting the right samples They woud have to come from the two children: Arthur Patrick Lake (Arthur Lake Jr.and Marion Rose Lake, or their children. Samples from Hearst's family would also be needed, one would think he'd have DNA around in a hair brush back at his ranch.

The more complicated issue would be to get the needed people to agree to give the samples.

Maybe this will be like the Thomas Jefferson/slave children issue and we'll only find out for sure about 100 years from now.

Would these Lake children have any claims to anything Hearst at this point if DNA proved them to be descendants?

The DNA could easily sort out the daughter/cousin/whatever question. The more relevant question is getting the right samples They woud have to come from the two children: Arthur Patrick Lake (Arthur Lake Jr.and Marion Rose Lake, or their children. Samples from Hearst's family would also be needed, one would think he'd have DNA around in a hair brush back at his ranch.

The more complicated issue would be to get the needed people to agree to give the samples.

Maybe this will be like the Thomas Jefferson/slave children issue and we'll only find out for sure about 100 years from now.

Or it could be like the Anna Andersen issue.

And in the "I found it on the internet so it must be true" category, someone has entered a family tree onto ancestry for Marion Davies, showing her husbands as Charles Spencer Chaplin and William Randolph Hearst. IT'S MILLER TIME!!

Looking up the name of Mae Scriven, Buster Keaton's second wife (1933-36), I was delighted to discover that she is currently available:

http://www.famoushookups.com/site/relationship_detail.php?name=Mae-Scriven&relid=17523&celebid=20040

In all likelihood, Mae (b. 1905) kicked the bucket long ago, but when there is no official record of your death, why, you can live forever on the wonderful Internet.

What, No Beer?!

from VANITY FAIR

San Simeon's child

Article Abstract:

The woman who was known as the niece of actress Marion Davies and newspaper tycoon Hearst is now claiming that she was, in fact, their daughter. Lake kept this a secret, and her son disclosed it after her death in 1993. Many remain skeptical.
Author: Sherrill, Martha
Publisher: Conde Nast Publications, Inc.
Publication Name: Vanity Fair
Subject: General interest
ISSN: 0733-8899
Year: 1995
History, Biography, Family, San Simeon, California, Hearst, William Randolph (American publisher), Lake, Patricia Van Cleve

I'd rather read "I Married Dagwood"

BTW- from what I gather about Arthur Lake he was good with money but something of a pain in the ass as he got older.

Patricia Lake played Blondie on the radio series after Penny Singleton quit.

Lake Jr. apparently died in a car accident a year after Pat died in 1993.

This indeed may be more like the Anastasia question eventually solved, (at least to most everyone's satisfaction) by DNA testing.

The funny part for me is that there is not an outcry to do this week, today, this minute. I guess some people out there have lives.

This indeed may be more like the Anastasia question eventually solved, (at least to most everyone's satisfaction) by DNA testing.

The funny part for me is that there is not an outcry to do this week, today, this minute. I guess some people out there have lives.

I think you could probably answer the question via the usual methods of historical research. You'll notice that the people who firmly believed Anna Andersen's story were not in the least deterred in that belief by the DNA results; I haven't checked but I'm sure they've already constructed a nicely conspiratorial ideological edifice to 'splain that pesky result away. Assuming the Hearst family had even a vague interest in supplying DNA swabs for such a purpose, that might well give them pause. It would also open up a wasps nest for them, wouldn't it? Any nutjob with a dollar agenda or an infirm grasp of reality could then make the same demand, based on even less evidence.

In re: Hearst's will, it was sealed in the wake of the Patty Hearst kidnapping for security reasons, but its specifics were public before that and are known. He left everything in trusts set up to keep the empire intact and free of death/probate taxes. In a later codicil (which was not known to the family) he left Marion shares and voting rights that would have effectively placed her in control of the entire kit and caboodle; this was apparently done because he felt that Marion might not be treated well by the family and he wanted to insure her financial security by giving her a hammer. She had no interest in running the corporation and signed over the rights in return for various property holdings. As might be expected of Hearst (and his attorneys) everything was watertight and the Lake family would have no rights whatsoever to anything, outside of what Marion left them. Which was not hay, by the way.

Now look what you've made me do. Ancestry has a ship manifest for a New York arrival dated 2 Nov 1936 on the Queen Mary. On board were Hearst, Marion, George Hearst, Rose Douras Van Cleve, Patricia Van Cleve (birthdate given as 18 Jun 1919, place New York), Mary Carlisle, and Arthur Lake.

The LA Times is still reporting on Arthur Lake as unmarried in July of 1937, but by early 1938 they start reporting him as married to Patricia Van Cleve. There is no marriage announcement in either the LA Times or the NY Times but it would seem they married some time in late 1937. It is also possible that they married in Europe in 1936--Pat would have been 17, young but not too young in those days. Had she been born later, in 1921-1923 as is claimed, she would have been too young even by '30s standards. Pat gives her age as 19 on the 1940 census where she is definitely enumerated as married to Arthur Lake. Was there anyone in Hollywood who wasn't lying about their age?

Now look what you've made me do. Ancestry has a ship manifest for a New York arrival dated 2 Nov 1936 on the Queen Mary. On board were Hearst, Marion, George Hearst, Rose Douras Van Cleve, Patricia Van Cleve (birthdate given as 18 Jun 1919, place New York), Mary Carlisle, and Arthur Lake.

The LA Times is still reporting on Arthur Lake as unmarried in July of 1937, but by early 1938 they start reporting him as married to Patricia Van Cleve. There is no marriage announcement in either the LA Times or the NY Times but it would seem they married some time in late 1937. It is also possible that they married in Europe in 1936--Pat would have been 17, young but not too young in those days. Had she been born later, in 1921-1923 as is claimed, she would have been too young even by '30s standards. Pat gives her age as 19 on the 1940 census where she is definitely enumerated as married to Arthur Lake. Was there anyone in Hollywood who wasn't lying about their age?

Probably not, but those who did were often encouraged to do so. Also, too, any vital statistics (height, weight, etc.).

MIDSHIPMAN JACK RKO (1933)

Fred, I heard there was a huge party in Europe where Pat's good name was called into question-she left American a virtuous young woman and came back a tramp.

It's up to you to clear her name.

If there's anyone who can do it, it's you.

Don't forget Guiles reports Pat as being a 7-year-old when daddy kindaped her in 1924. He may have been closer to the truth than we thought. I couldn't find any news stories on the kindaping. The earlier Pat was born would seemingly make it easier for Marion to have hidden it....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogical_DNA_test

Here's a blurb from October 1927 NY Times. I didn't pay for entire article...

LOS ANGELES, Cal., Oct. 12. -- A nation-wide search for Patricia Davies, niece of Marion Davies, motion picture star, was revealed here today. The girl, who is only 9 years of age, disappeared from the home of her mother, Mrs. Rose Van Cleve, sister of Marion, in Beverly-Hills.

Interesting that she's called Patricia Davies here.... and at 9, puts her birth 1918 ..... close to Guiles' date.

Here's a blurb from October 1927 NY Times. I didn't pay for entire article...

LOS ANGELES, Cal., Oct. 12. -- A nation-wide search for Patricia Davies, niece of Marion Davies, motion picture star, was revealed here today. The girl, who is only 9 years of age, disappeared from the home of her mother, Mrs. Rose Van Cleve, sister of Marion, in Beverly-Hills.

Interesting that she's called Patricia Davies here.... and at 9, puts her birth 1918 ..... close to Guiles' date.

The LA Times puts Pat's age at 6, 7, and 9 depending on the article. We can either attribute this to sloppy reporting or to a conspiracy. I'm a big fan of Occam's Razor.

There is NO consistency among the various bits and pieces.... quite intriguing.

At the very least, you'd think they'd have the kid's name and age right.... I wonder if this was a "manipulation" by Hearst's papers to avoid the Pat/Marion rumor ??

Occam's Razor? May more like a Gordian Knot....

There is NO consistency among the various bits and pieces.... quite intriguing.

I do not find it surprising that there is little or no consistency in various reports. After all, most reporting and in a lot of newspapers they were not exactly held to a rigourous standard of fact checking.

Intriguing, perhaps, but if you are serious, it's up to you to vet the sources, find the birth certificate to nail down the birthdate and parents. Skimming articles online can only take you so far.

From Variety:

Arthur Lake Marries — Arthur Lake, film player, and Patricia Van Cleve of Beverly Hills married at the Hearst ranch, Simeon, Sunday. Bride is the daughter of Rose Davies Van Cleve, sister of.
Published Date: 07-27-1937

So much for the 1923 or 1924 birth year.....

Oh dear, let's talk embarrassing typos. From an ad for Cecilia of the Pink Roses from the Olean Evening Times: Tonight and Friday Matinee and Night, the Beautiful Stag Star Marion Davies!

Oh dear, let's talk embarrassing typos. From an ad for Cecilia of the Pink Roses from the Olean Evening Times: Tonight and Friday Matinee and Night, the Beautiful Stag Star Marion Davies!

She would have been beautiful no matter who was in the crowd. What any of us would give to have been able to see that show. Well, to see the show and not be dead or 142 years old today.

Back to the 'none of us reading this have a life' topic, Is the evidence thus far assembled suggesting that she IS Marion's daughter?

Interestingly, the only references to Patricia Van Cleve/Lake that I've been able to find in the Australian media make no reference to any Hearst connection, describing her only as a Los Angeles socialite and - the first time I've heard this - a 'professional singer'.

Oh dear, let's talk embarrassing typos. From an ad for Cecilia of the Pink Roses from the Olean Evening Times: Tonight and Friday Matinee and Night, the Beautiful Stag Star Marion Davies!

She would have been beautiful no matter who was in the crowd. What any of us would give to have been able to see that show. Well, to see the show and not be dead or 142 years old today.

Back to the 'none of us reading this have a life' topic, Is the evidence thus far assembled suggesting that she IS Marion's daughter?

What evidence has been presented that Pat Lake was Marion's daughter? So far we have a deathbed confession where the confessor reportedly got the name and place of her own birth wrong, and a tense change. This is not compelling.

BTW, assuming Pat Lake was born on 6/18/1919 (so far it's the date that works best, unless we're going with that creepy "child bride" thing), we have a problem. On 3/9/1919 Variety reported that Allan Dwan had just finished directing Getting Mary Married for Select, Marion starring. On April 11, 1919, Variety reported that Allan Dwan was filming The Dark Star, Marion starring. In between those two dates, on 3/21/1919, Variety reports that Marion is ill with influenza, but she returned to work on 3/28/1919. Given this timeline, if we assume that Pat Lake was born in June of 1919, Marion must have been the size of a barn while filming The Dark Star and Allan Dwan (whom Kevin Brownlow interviewed extensively for Hollywood) was holding out on us. If we decide that Marion didn't have influenza in the middle of an influenza epidemic but really gave birth to Pat Lake during that 3/21 - 3/28 period, then ditto on the barn thing during the filming of Getting Mary Married. And again, Allan Dwan was holding out on us.

I have a copy of Getting Mary Married and Marion is certainly not noticeably pregnant.

But so far we have birth years in various books and other sources ranging from 1917-24. Poor Pat probably never knew her own real birth date.

The death bed confession was apparently only to the son who died within a year in a car accident. Variety reported the San Simon marriage in 1937 so those later years are pretty much obviously wrong.

Marion's bout of flu is not mentioned in the Guiles book at all.