Tweet Seventh Heaven (27)

[silentfilm]

David Shepard will be presenting Seventh Heaven at the Kansas Silent Film Festival next month.

http://www.kssilentfilmfest.org/kssff2011/program.html

I just hated the ending. It was all wrong. Didn't Chico die right in front of the priest's eyes in the trenches?? The very same priest who comes to tell Diane of his death???

You're going to love the ending of Lucky Star.

[Mike Gebert]

All I can say is, try seeing it in a big crowd sometime; I first saw it that way and was swept away by the triumph of hope over admitted narrative dishonesty.

Or, it could just not be the movie for you, which is fine, but it's one of my all-time-great movie theater experiences. (Silent Film Society of Chicago, 8 or 10 years ago.)

The boxed-set release starts with almost a minute of music with a black screen, which might affect comparing the run times (does the BFI version do this?)

Yes, it does indeed.

I very much like this film, but I agree with you about the ending. It's simply not remotely swallowable. Rather like the endings of two other films I mostly like, THE WIND and CITY GIRL. I really, really hate it when they muck up an ending. Especially CITY GIRL. I hope that absolutely ridiculous ending was studio-imposed, and not Murnau's fault.

"City Girl" is also a favorite of mine, and I agree partially with you.

At least in "City Girl," we have the tramatic scene where the father shoots his own son, before having a change of heart.

It's not just the father having a sudden change of heart that I have a problem with, it's that the son and his wife not only automatically accept that, but go back with him to live on the farm, AFTER he has physically assaulted his son's wife and treated her like a slave for months. She even HUGS the bastard for chrissakes.

Of course, I have a problem with the believability of the plot in general, but perhaps physical violence by a father toward his son's wife and enslavement of same was much more accepted by the son and other family members at that place and time. Yikes.

Could the parties involved please stop the schoolyard fight of "My favorite film is better than your favorite film!" ?

And the "Seventh Heaven" bashing is getting pretty tiresome, too. Anyone can see why those who don't like it don't like it, and why those who love it, love it.

Since I'm usually a realist when it comes to films, I also find the ending a bit of a cheat -- though it's totally consistent with other Borzage films I've seen, and a completely Hollywood thing to do.?

Hollywood, most certainly; believable in the context of the rest of the film, certainly not.

E.T., anyone?

No thanks!

Could the parties involved please stop the schoolyard fight of "My favorite film is better than your favorite film!" ?

And the "Seventh Heaven" bashing is getting pretty tiresome, too. Anyone can see why those who don't like it don't like it, and why those who love it, love it.

It would be better if those who have a problem with legitimate film discussion on a film discussion message board take their complaints elsewhere instead of trying to silence well-reasoned opinions that don't jive with their own. Please notice that those of us who have a problem with parts of Seventh Heaven are also pointing out what we admire about the film. I love it, except for the ending, but the rest of it is so good that it doesn't ruin the film for me.

I believe that all surviving material on 7th HEAVEN descends from a diacetate print which Janet Gaynor donated to MoMA in the '30s.

David S

It's not just the father having a sudden change of heart that I have a problem with, it's that the son and his wife not only automatically accept that, but go back with him to live on the farm, AFTER he has physically assaulted his son's wife and treated her like a slave for months. She even HUGS the bastard for chrissakes.

Of course, I have a problem with the believability of the plot in general, but perhaps physical violence by a father toward his son's wife and enslavement of same was much more accepted by the son and other family members at that place and time. Yikes.

We're really getting off topic now (this began as "Seventh Heaven" vs "Mare Nostrum"), but I'll respond this once.

"City Girl" and Griffith's "Way Down East" are two big favorites of mine. Both are excellent dramas.

I really only know Ferrell from CG, and I thought Murnau did a fine job of story telling, perhaps even better than in "Sunrise." In spite of it's Hollywood ending (which means that they had to kiss and forgive), I could watch these two again and again and get moved by the story everytime.

At least it doesn't have all that silly stuff (likethere is in "Way Down East"). I skip through all the excessive comic relief to follow the very dramatic story.

I loved where Gish names her dying baby, "Trust Lennox." Now there was a villian!

In the end (just like CG), we have another father who comes begging forgiveness.....And gets it.

I believe that all surviving material on 7th HEAVEN descends from a diacetate print which Janet Gaynor donated to MoMA in the '30s.

David S

Excellent.

Thank you, David

I've had the Murnau-Borzage set since it first came out. Haven't gotten the chance to watch 7th Heaven. Now I'm glad I didn't since I'll get to see it with a big audience in Topeka. Cool!

I saw it in Seattle with a big audience. You are in for a treat.

One image from SEVENTH HEAVEN that won't leave me, for better or worse: Janet Gaynor getting whipped and strangled by her sadistic sister in the middle of the street. What a wild and surreal scene! At that moment, it almost felt more like a whacked-out Guy Maddin experimentation than a Borzage feature.

It also seems that I should really check out MARE NOSTRUM sometime soon!

Perhaps you need to be in the right frame of mind to enjoy `Seventh Heaven'. It plays particularly well in front of an audience, I've found (though that could be said of most silent films), and it has that slightly mystical tone that wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea.

Heck, I'm no stickler for veracity, verisimilitude, or droll/clinical realism, but I do remember have a somewhat averse reaction to the ethereal, super-sentimental conclusion. Even by my standards it seemed to strain credibility. My memory of my single viewing of the film is fuzzy, but I do recall being troubled by its relative implausibility and literalness. But the more I reflect on that ending, the more appropriate it seems; heck, we could just chalk that up to Borzage being... Borzage. I do want to see it again to find out if my reaction is the byproduct of temporary cantankerousness. Something tells me I need to just go with it, tossing all cynicism aside and embracing my inner sentimentalist. Then again, I'm also veeeeeery tempted to wait for a better (longer?) print to surface (but don't hold my breath, right?). Oh, Borzage, why can't I quit you?

Chuck W,

Don't worry, the Movie-Tone score is cleaned up nicely on the Murnau-Borzage set. Although, there are a few short adjusted edits. I assume that it sounds the same on the BFI DVD's. I happen to love the Movie-tone score. I think it's one of the best vintage tracks to any Silent film. The only other score that I know of is the William Perry Piano one from the very early 70's. Not one of his better efforts by the way. And I generally think highly of Bill's work.

Hmm. Looks like it's Movie-Tone or nothin'. Well, unless this other print mysteriously resurfaces and makes its way to the consumer.

[Mike Gebert]

I wrote something a long time ago about these Borzage endings:

...in its day it was a huge success, and it's no mystery why. With World War I less than a decade behind it, Seventh Heaven (1927) offered shameless fulfillment of one of the most persistent fantasies of the war-- that your loved one, believed dead, will rise and come back to you if you just wish for it with all your heart.

Did audiences believe this, exactly? No, they were adults, fully aware of what a sad world this can be. Could they be transported for a moment in a way that powerfully served an emotional need and offered emotional release, if only for that moment? Yes. And I think that's what is so moving and honest about Borzage-- he was willing to serve that desperately-felt wish in retrospect (to rewrite World War I, basically) but when it came to WWII gathering clouds ahead, he wasn't willing to sugarcoat what was yet to happen, and made powerfully sad films about the tragedies yet to come at the hands of the Nazis.

I wrote something a long time ago about these Borzage endings:

...in its day it was a huge success, and it's no mystery why. With World War I less than a decade behind it, Seventh Heaven (1927) offered shameless fulfillment of one of the most persistent fantasies of the war-- that your loved one, believed dead, will rise and come back to you if you just wish for it with all your heart.

Did audiences believe this, exactly? No, they were adults, fully aware of what a sad world this can be. Could they be transported for a moment in a way that powerfully served an emotional need and offered emotional release, if only for that moment? Yes. And I think that's what is so moving and honest about Borzage-- he was willing to serve that desperately-felt wish in retrospect (to rewrite World War I, basically) but when it came to WWII gathering clouds ahead, he wasn't willing to sugarcoat what was yet to happen, and made powerfully sad films about the tragedies yet to come at the hands of the Nazis.

These and your earlier comments sum up my feelings too - if you're looking for a realistic film in `Seventh Heaven', you're simply looking in the wrong place.

In a strange way, making a film this idealistic must have taken Borzage more guts than one with the sort of ending you might expect (compare it with `Lilac Time', for example). It's something you could quite literally not get away with today.

Did audiences believe this, exactly? No, they were adults, fully aware of what a sad world this can be. Could they be transported for a moment in a way that powerfully served an emotional need and offered emotional release, if only for that moment? Yes. And I think that's what is so moving and honest about Borzage-- he was willing to serve that desperately-felt wish in retrospect (to rewrite World War I, basically) but when it came to WWII gathering clouds ahead, he wasn't willing to sugarcoat what was yet to happen, and made powerfully sad films about the tragedies yet to come at the hands of the Nazis.

I reckon I'm going to watch it again tonight with this in mind.
I must admit I didn't look at the film this way before.
This is a really cool forum.

I reckon I'm going to watch it again tonight with this in mind.
I must admit I didn't look at the film this way before.
This is a really cool forum.

Thank you Michael for starting this with your question about print quality. All the comments have also encouraged me to approach this as something more than a dramatic story. I'm sure to enjoy it more on my next viewing.

If you look carefully to how the film was photographed, you might see that it may have been done that way intentionally.

I reckon I'm going to watch it again tonight with this in mind.
I must admit I didn't look at the film this way before.
This is a really cool forum.

Thank you Michael for starting this with your question about print quality. All the comments have also encouraged me to approach this as something more than a dramatic story. I'm sure to enjoy it more on my next viewing.

If you look carefully to how the film was photographed, you might see that it may have been done that way intentionally.

I concur. Excellent write-up, Mike. It definitely puts some of my reservations into perspective, and prepares for the the inevitable second viewing.

If Chico and Diane can "be" with each other every day at 11 a.m., the power of Diane's love can certainly bring Chico back from the brink of death, even long distance. ;) We are talking about a man who even though now blind can find his way through the jammed streets of Paris to his old building and his apartment after years away at war. :)

STREET ANGEL is finally running on TCM in February to my knowledge for the very first time.

I sure hope they won't be showing that weirdly squeezed print in the Fox-Murnau-Borzage box set.

Incidentally, it appears that the battle scenes were filmed by John Ford - according to the notes in my set.
Never knew this.

If Chico and Diane can "be" with each other every day at 11 a.m., the power of Diane's love can certainly bring Chico back from the brink of death, even long distance. We are talking about a man who even though now blind can find his way through the jammed streets of Paris to his old building and his apartment after years away at war.

Well, he WAS a sewer worker and a street cleaner. He can probably navigate by the feel of the cobblestones and the smells of the various manhole covers. And more to the point, he's a very remarkable fellow.

I also suspect that at some point between the start of hostilities and the armistice, he probably had SOME home leave, even though it's not shown in the film.

The whole discussion reminds me of the time when `Edward Scissorhands' was first released. I came out of the theatre, having enjoyed it very much. Two fellows near me were quite disgusted - almost asking-for-your-money-back disgusted.

`As if a guy would have scissors for hands! It's just ridiculous! It'd never happen!' they kept repeating, and riffs on that theme.

What it comes down to is that you accept the world the film creates for you, and the rules within it, or you don't.

Well...Scissorhands is an obvious fantasy - Seventh H is not so obvious!!

Difficult to compare the two in this way.

Then, perhaps what it comes down to is that every film is an `obvious fantasy'. It creates its world, and it's up to the film-maker to make sure that film is believable. That's true whether it's the Lord of the Rings movies or `Full Metal Jacket'.

Well...Scissorhands is an obvious fantasy - Seventh H is not so obvious!!

Difficult to compare the two in this way.

May be time for you to view Ordet. Or Ponette.

Then define "fantasy."

Well, maybe you're right. I haven't seen those films.

However, my comment regarding the above comparison still stands.

Then, perhaps what it comes down to is that every film is an `obvious fantasy'. It creates its world, and it's up to the film-maker to make sure that film is believable. That's true whether it's the Lord of the Rings movies or `Full Metal Jacket'.

The camera lies twenty-four times a second.

Bob

Thanks for that post, Mike - a very sympathetic reading of the ending, which also makes me want to see the film again...

I think I felt all the more cheated because I had gone along with everything up to that point so wholeheartedly; I turned into a real sap watching this film. I believed in this mystical connection between the two characters, I desperately didn't want Farrell to die in the trenches, and when Gaynor is told of his death and says, 'so none of it was real', there was a really crushing tragic weight to this moment.

But then it turns out the moment is only there so that, like a parent hurriedly altering a bedtime story, the film can say 'No no, it was alright though, he wasn't really dead, everything is fine - please don't cry!' Maybe this sort of wish-fulfilment was more comforting and meaningful, as you say, for the 1927 audience; I couldn't even begin to put myself in their shoes. But from my own limited experience of being fed this sort of anaesthetising drivel shortly after a personal tragedy, I find it moving only in a cruel way; it's maybe even a little bit insulting. I dunno - just how I feel after a first viewing.

A totally, mind-blowingly fantastic film in every other respect, though. My recent discovery of Borzage (through the BFI sets) has been a very major revelation for me, and watching this, Street Angel, Lucky Star and The River in quick succession was such a great experience - each film seemed better than the last.

[And Mare Nostrum has been near the top of my silent wish-list for years, ever since I saw a clip from it in Brownlow's Hollywood.]

[Oh, and hello Nitrateville.]

On to the quality of prints, I noticed that the Murnau/Borzage boxed set has a short duplicated scene (where Chico is asking Mr. Boul to start his taxi, we get the title "Crank up Eloise!" and the following reaction shots twice). I'm curious if this is present in other video versions. There are also places where the music suddenly cuts off, which makes me think that the surviving print doesn't exactly match.

I've just watched my Carlotta Blu-ray of this and this has the same duplicated scene. I hadn't noticed it before but it sticks out when you are looking for it.