Tweet Worst Score For Silent Movie?

Another problem with many recorded scores is that if bits of the music are still under copyright (which certainly could be the case for Vince Giordano's scores), the cost of licensing these compositions for "sync rights" can be astronomical.

I sometimes get "live performance" recordings of our scores, but I'd need permission of all of the musicians to make them available, and as a group we're mighty picky. A live score never goes as smoothly as it appears to the audience -- playing an hour and a half of music without breaks takes a lot of concentration -- and no one wants people to hear your flubbed entrance time after time...

Recording in the studio, of course, means being able to repeat a piece a few times to get it right. But it would probably take several days of time to get a good recording of our score for SHERLOCK JR., for instance, and I doubt we'd sell many copies. So, it's an added inducement to come see us live!

Another problem with many recorded scores is that if bits of the music are still under copyright (which certainly could be the case for Vince Giordano's scores), the cost of licensing these compositions for "sync rights" can be astronomical.

I sometimes get "live performance" recordings of our scores, but I'd need permission of all of the musicians to make them available, and as a group we're mighty picky. A live score never goes as smoothly as it appears to the audience -- playing an hour and a half of music without breaks takes a lot of concentration -- and no one wants people to hear your flubbed entrance time after time...

Recording in the studio, of course, means being able to repeat a piece a few times to get it right. But it would probably take several days of time to get a good recording of our score for SHERLOCK JR., for instance, and I doubt we'd sell many copies. So, it's an added inducement to come see us live!

Fernando Kabusacki and Matías Mango perform their scores live in the television studio (although the show is recorded). Here are they providing music for THE SILENT AVENGER (1926) that it was probably not identified when they presented it. I captured more examples last week and I could post more examples later (when they run for less than 20 minutes):

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id= ... 5310190915

[silentfilm]

I've had Cleopatra recorded from TCM since September, and I finally got around to watching it. The score is not by Maria Newman, but by singers-songwriters Chantal Kreviazuk and her husband, Our Lady of Peace lead vocalist, Raine Maida. As "new age" music, some of it is pretty good, and some not so good.

As silent-film accompaniament, it is wildly inappropriate. You'd have to play "Happy Trails" or something like the "Barney" song to get more innapropriate! It's a very early feature film about Cleopatra and Ancient Egypt and Rome! The electronic score does not help the film much, and the singing, sound effects, and percussion really hurt it. Helen Gardner needs some help since she is not exactly convincing as a sexy woman, but at least she has some personality -- which is more than I can say about the male actors in this film. The acting style is really "presentational" like many 1910s stage-plays, and it really needs some help from the music score.

Except for two or three closer shots in the alleged battle sequence, it was completely filmed in long-shot. It was an interesting film, but I hope that I never have to sit through it or the music again!

Some thoughts about "bad" scores...

One thing I've noticed is that in live performance for silent comedies, it's important not to overdo the music in terms of volume or busyness because it can inhibit the contagious laughter that can happen with a large audience.

Several years ago, I attended a program of surefire silent comedy shorts, and was startled at how little laughter these films produced from a general audience. I realized that one of the reasons had to be that the music was simply too continuously loud, and people couldn't hear each other laughing, and so the big full audience laughs never developed.

Having said that, I admire any musician or group who tackles a film for real. I've been doing it for a couple of years now and it can be quite a challenge to really do a movie justice. I am simply amazed at what people such as Phil Carli and Ben Model can seemingly pull out of a hat, and how much a carefully compiled score (such as what Rodney Sauer and Mont Alto do) can enhance a film.

About "needle-drop" scores: I attended a screening of "Safety Last" at The Brattle Cinema in Cambridge, Mass. a few years ago and was horrified to find the music used was simply Scott Joplin rags played over and over. It completely trivialized this great piece of cinema, which with an appropriate score can still cause an audience to shriek and gasp. It's one of the reasons I decided to start doing music for silent films - I felt even I could do better, and wanted to help these movies be presented effectively.

Another example of an inferior "needle drop" score is an Alpha DVD version of "Way Down East" that I have. It's the same sombre chords cycling over and over again, no matter what the action; this, coupled with a dark and dupey print, would turn any newbie off silent film forever after just a few minutes. Bad Alpha! Bad!

Fortunately, we have access to a beautiful print of "Way Down East" for a screening here in New Hampshire later this month (where some of the film, including the ice floe sequences, was filmed) and it's satisfying to be creating a live original score to help bring the film to life. I'll let folks know if we manage to help Griffith's tear-jerker to build enough steam to move an audience.

Oddly, though, sometimes "needle drop" scores are just the ticket. At a New Year's Eve gathering, my film archivist colleague Dave Stevenson ran a print of the 1910 Edison "Frankenstein" film to a section of a 1929 recording of "Le Sacre du Printemps" conducted by Stravinsky himself and it was amazing how well the music fit the action completely by chance!

Jeff Rapsis

I've just made available, for anyone who's interested, an alternate score for "Cleopatra" (1912) that synchs with the version aired on TCM. I'd recorded this for a friend some time ago and didn't realize just how many people (besides my friend) objected to the score on the TCM version...but this picture and its score comes up in threads on this site rather often. I've also included on my site a preview of the first seven minutes of the film with my score synched to it.

NOTE: the score was done on my Kurzweil PC2 using its digital orch samples (Jon Mirsalis uses this same keyboard for some of his scores), and the preview is there in case you want to see if this sort of score will bother you or not. (Please, let's not start a rant about digital samples...if you don't care for them, just don't buy the score.)

Visit http://www.altscore.com and click on "the scores" to check it out.

Ben

Oddly, though, sometimes "needle drop" scores are just the ticket. At a New Year's Eve gathering, my film archivist colleague Dave Stevenson ran a print of the 1910 Edison "Frankenstein" film to a section of a 1929 recording of "Le Sacre du Printemps" conducted by Stravinsky himself and it was amazing how well the music fit the action completely by chance!

Back at the School for Creative and Performing Arts in Cincinnati, I developed a needle drop score for Erno Metzner's "Uberfall" that synched perfectly - start the film with Micheal Tilson Thomas and Ralph Grierson's 4-hand piano recording of "Le Sacre du Printemps" and when the guy gets clubbed on the head, switch to Paul Price's Percussion Ensemble playing Henry Cowell's "Ostinato Pianissimo." Worked every time; though nowadays the biggest challenge is finding those records -- I still have them.

spadeneal

Another problem with many recorded scores is that if bits of the music are still under copyright (which certainly could be the case for Vince Giordano's scores), the cost of licensing these compositions for "sync rights" can be astronomical.

I sometimes get "live performance" recordings of our scores, but I'd need permission of all of the musicians to make them available, and as a group we're mighty picky. A live score never goes as smoothly as it appears to the audience -- playing an hour and a half of music without breaks takes a lot of concentration -- and no one wants people to hear your flubbed entrance time after time...

Recording in the studio, of course, means being able to repeat a piece a few times to get it right. But it would probably take several days of time to get a good recording of our score for SHERLOCK JR., for instance, and I doubt we'd sell many copies. So, it's an added inducement to come see us live!

Bob Mitchell (anyone not in the know thats the 96 year old accompanist at the Silent Movie Theatre) said back when "La Boheme" came out they wouldnt let him play music from the opera as they'd 'have to pay for it'. Then he laughed and said he could play it all he wanted now as all the stuff they had quabbled over was now in public domain. LOL I think that problem has been going on longer than we think :p

Bob Mitchell (anyone not in the know thats the 96 year old accompanist at the Silent Movie Theatre) said back when "La Boheme" came out they wouldnt let him play music from the opera as they'd 'have to pay for it'. Then he laughed and said he could play it all he wanted now as all the stuff they had quabbled over was now in public domain. LOL I think that problem has been going on longer than we think :p

That reminds me of DeMille's CARMEN. They made a point of basing it on the novel, not on the opera, so that they wouldn't have to pay royalties to Bizet and his librettist. The musicians in each movie theater, of course, were independent artists and usually put the Carmen opera music in the score anyway.

Bob Mitchell (anyone not in the know thats the 96 year old accompanist at the Silent Movie Theatre) said back when "La Boheme" came out they wouldnt let him play music from the opera as they'd 'have to pay for it'. Then he laughed and said he could play it all he wanted now as all the stuff they had quabbled over was now in public domain. LOL I think that problem has been going on longer than we think :p

That reminds me of DeMille's CARMEN. They made a point of basing it on the novel, not on the opera, so that they wouldn't have to pay royalties to Bizet and his librettist. The musicians in each movie theater, of course, were independent artists and usually put the Carmen opera music in the score anyway.

In one opera radio show that my mother used to listen to (which I frequently taped myself), they always complained that Ricordi would make some minimal change to the scores of the Puccini and Verdi operas in order to continue charging for copyrights.

The thing I do hate about Ricordi is that their tango scores look and feel like the xerox they pretend to be fighting against. (Their covers are lousy and repugnant and feature a greedy company totally run by incompetence.)

Radiotelefonica wrote

The thing I do hate about Ricordi is that their tango scores look and feel like the xerox they pretend to be fighting against. (Their covers are lousy and repugnant and feature a greedy company totally run by incompetence.)

.

Would you mind explaining what Ricordi is?

Bob

Ricordi is a music publisher. If you want to put on an opera, a classical symphony, or some such, you phone them up and rent the score and parts and (I guess from Radiotelefonica's discussion) the performance rights. Since many operas are technically public domain, they probably come out with a new "edition" every so often so they can maintain copyright on their version of the scores and prevent bootleg copies, given that it's now hard to find complete opera scores that were published back in 1920. They were around in the teens, and their material was used in silent film scores, so it's tangentially relevant.

Ricordi is a music publisher. If you want to put on an opera, a classical symphony, or some such, you phone them up and rent the score and parts and (I guess from Radiotelefonica's discussion) the performance rights. Since many operas are technically public domain, they probably come out with a new "edition" every so often so they can maintain copyright on their version of the scores and prevent bootleg copies, given that it's now hard to find complete opera scores that were published back in 1920. They were around in the teens, and their material was used in silent film scores, so it's tangentially relevant.

Smarty pants!

Ricordi is a music publisher. If you want to put on an opera, a classical symphony, or some such, you phone them up and rent the score and parts and (I guess from Radiotelefonica's discussion) the performance rights. Since many operas are technically public domain, they probably come out with a new "edition" every so often so they can maintain copyright on their version of the scores and prevent bootleg copies, given that it's now hard to find complete opera scores that were published back in 1920. They were around in the teens, and their material was used in silent film scores, so it's tangentially relevant.

Smarty pants!

This is an example of a Ricordi score that has lost its original cover (the embedded recording is from 1928, but the score is from 1914):

http://www.todotango.com/spanish/las_ob ... px?id=1456

I prefer this extract from a film from the forties (unfortunately, Roberto Firpo was not allowed to perform it complete):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuJjibSfFXU

I managed to rescue myself this obscure 1945 recording, a piano duo by Firpo with his son (it comes from a series of piano duos that I managed to recover just before a collector died):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TedKpNOS ... annel_page

Well, wait for the Pickford Foundation issues that will become available. Milestone Films and the Pickford Foundation have done a wonderful job with what has been released so far. Hopefully when Dennis returns from Pordenone, he can enlighten us to what is coming up and when re Pickford.

Sorry, it took even longer but I'm in the midst of a restoration (Araya, from 1959) so I'm not checking as often as I should. Sparrows (from the LOC restoration), The Hoodlum and Poor Little Rich Girl better be out next year for the 100th anni of Mary's first film appearance. The MPI/MPF should have everything done in time.

After that, I have a few ideas.

Let's hope Maria Newman is not let anywhere near any more Milestone Pickford releases (or any other silent film releases, for that matter). Her score for HEART O' THE HILLS is absolutely abominable, and from what I've read online, so is her score for THE LOVE LIGHT, which is preventing me from ordering it, even though it sounds like a lovely film. Please, PLEASE let her score no more...

Other scores I didn't like (besides countless PD "loop" scores):

Michael Polher's "score" for THE PENALTY
Clubfoot Orchestra's score for SHERLOCK JR.
Mike Mortilla's scores for the older Chaplin Mutuals set
Carl Davis' scores for the latest Chaplin Mutuals set, especially THE COUNT

To add to that last, I was extremely disappointed in most of the Davis scores for the newest rendition of the Chaplin Mutuals; I had been so looking forward to them, but for the most part, he really dropped the ball. I usually love Carl's stuff, but not this time. THE COUNT score is the worst; a slow tempo number almost completely destroys the final chase scene. There still hasn't been anything to compare with the classic Sharples/Rodemich jazzy band scores from the '30s Van Beuren reissues, which are often erroneously called needle-drops, but most certainly aren't; they were specially compiled for the films and played by some of the best session musicians of the era. Even though the new set has the best visual quality and is the most complete (though still not yet completely complete), I still find myself pulling out the Van Beuren reissue versions because of those wonderful scores.

If anyone from Kino is reading this, please, please, PLEASE put Ben Model's piano score on the Sherlock Jr. Blu-ray! Go ahead and keep the Club Foot one on there too, but please add Ben's score (or at least *some* kind of alternative to the CF score).

Did I mention "please?"

Fred

PS: I've bought Busters films from Kino on VHS, Laserdisc, DVD, and now Blu-ray. I'm doing my part!

I second that! Ben's score is fantastic. You'll make yourself more affordable to Kino than Vince & The Nighthawks, won't you Ben, just for us please?

Thanks for the kind words about the piano score for SHERLOCK JR. I've heard some of the orchestral score for THE HOODLUM, and am not that crazy about it.

I haven't been able to find the Newman-scored Pickford DVDs at the NYPL, but will try to track them down to record scores for them that you can download at http://www.altscore.com. I recently got a request from a fan for a score to synch with the DVD of THE UNKNOWN, and so that's next in the altscore pipeline...

Let's hope Maria Newman is not let anywhere near any more Milestone Pickford releases (or any other silent film releases, for that matter). Her score for HEART O' THE HILLS is absolutely abominable...

You must have read my mind. What should have been a lovely pastoral score sounded more like something out of "The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari." Abominable is too nice a word... it literally ruined the film for me.

[Danny Burk]

Let's hope Maria Newman is not let anywhere near any more Milestone Pickford releases (or any other silent film releases, for that matter). Her score for HEART O' THE HILLS is absolutely abominable...

You must have read my mind. What should have been a lovely pastoral score sounded more like something out of "The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari." Abominable is too nice a word... it literally ruined the film for me.

I'm in complete agreement. The LOVE LIGHT score is so vile, so putrid (strong enough?) that I had to turn the sound off to watch it. Please...no more MN...the info that one of her musical catastrophes is included on a given title is surely hurting its sales!

I said this in another thread but I'll repeat it here. The score for EROTIKON is abominable. It absolutely sinks the film.

Let's hope Maria Newman is not let anywhere near any more Milestone Pickford releases (or any other silent film releases, for that matter). Her score for HEART O' THE HILLS is absolutely abominable...

You must have read my mind. What should have been a lovely pastoral score sounded more like something out of "The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari." Abominable is too nice a word... it literally ruined the film for me.

Nice to see you here, Doug!

Any of the "techno music" scores are out. I can't remember specific films...

I hate to say it because I really like every Milestone release I have, but the Neil Brand score for Piccadilly is a real deal-breaker for me, and I can't imagine that I'll ever buy it. I guess this score's inclusion isn't really Milestone's fault, though -- isn't it what came from BFI?

But, gosh it's terrible. It's so swing-inflected that it has more to do with 1939 than 1929. It's brassy and repetitive and seldom has much to do with what's happening onscreen.

In one of the disc's extras, Brand explains that he'd always wanted to score a noir, and that he took the opportunity to riff on noir elements in Piccadilly -- that I don't see there at all. Not only that, but if that's his reasoning, what has that particular score even got to do with noir?

I see no one has mentioned my least-favorite score.

Yes, it is another one by Maria Newman. TOM SAWYER was shown on TCM about 2001 with her score. This version stars Jack Pickford. The music did not match the action in any way and was a mess. What could have been an enjoyable piece of Americana was ruined.

Rick

I hate to say it because I really like every Milestone release I have, but the Neil Brand score for Piccadilly is a real deal-breaker for me, and I can't imagine that I'll ever buy it. I guess this score's inclusion isn't really Milestone's fault, though -- isn't it what came from BFI?

But, gosh it's terrible. It's so swing-inflected that it has more to do with 1939 than 1929. It's brassy and repetitive and seldom has much to do with what's happening onscreen.

In one of the disc's extras, Brand explains that he'd always wanted to score a noir, and that he took the opportunity to riff on noir elements in Piccadilly -- that I don't see there at all. Not only that, but if that's his reasoning, what has that particular score even got to do with noir?

I'd almost forgotten that score. The music isn't bad in itself, but you're right- it doesn't go with the picture. Neil Brand generally favors a somewhat jazzy style and when he's playing solo piano he can get away with it. Not long before the disc came out I heard him improvise a piano score to Piccadilly (It was Cinefest, the year the heat in the theater broke down and we nearly froze to death) He did a great job- quite jazzy but in a very fresh manner.

I've heard that Brand's piano score was really great, which only adds to my frustration with what ended up on the disc.

By the way, I feel the same way about the Erotikon score you mentioned above -- I don't hate the music particularly, but it just doesn't really fit the film at all. The first time I watched the film with it, I read the film as something much other than the comedy of manners that it is. Mike Gebert mentions the trouble with this score in his Amazon review, and notes that the film's been called "frothy". Armed with that thought, I went back and watched it again looking for "frothy", and didn't see any. But I did notice a very elegant, comic subtlety in it, and especially fell in love with Tora Teje for it. There's nothing laugh-out-loud funny about the film, not really even anything giggly, but it is essentially a sophisticated drawing-room comedy (with aeroplane rides!), and the persistently droning score makes it hard to see the humor and turns the film into something else.

I see no one has mentioned my least-favorite score.

Yes, it is another one by Maria Newman. TOM SAWYER was shown on TCM about 2001 with her score. This version stars Jack Pickford. The music did not match the action in any way and was a mess. What could have been an enjoyable piece of Americana was ruined.

Rick

Ah, Maria Newman strikes again. Who exactly is responsible for hiring her to aurally desecrate these classics?

Luckily, Unknown Video has come to the rescue of TOM SAWYER; I haven't seen the TCM print, but Unknown's print is perfectly watchable, and is married to a very nice Bob Vaughn score. This DVD-R also includes the delightful LITTLE MARY SUNSHINE, the sole surviving film of Baby Marie Osborne, and directed by Henry King. And you get a nice silent film poster fridge magnet too!

I see no one has mentioned my least-favorite score.

Yes, it is another one by Maria Newman. TOM SAWYER was shown on TCM about 2001 with her score. This version stars Jack Pickford. The music did not match the action in any way and was a mess. What could have been an enjoyable piece of Americana was ruined.

Rick

She didn't even write it as a film score. It's material from a string quartet cut and rearranged. As music it has some merit but not as a film score. Her score for The Love Light would make a nice piece for trumpet and strings. I think there's a place for her music in the concert hall, and it should stay there.

I'm reminded of a time in the early 70s when the Orson Welles Cinema in Cambridge MA presented a marathon of silent cartoons -- all these Fleischers, Winsor McCays, Disneys and others that I had never seen at that tender age. The music? A single recording of Mozart's "Rondo a la Turque," played over and over and over...

How I walked out of that theater with a continuing love for early animation I'll never know. It was torturous.

If this was one of the all-night marathons the Welles used to do, and it was the early seventies, I think it's a pretty sure bet that 99% of the audience was so stoned out of their minds that they probably didn't even notice!

Oh, that Orson Welles...Heh -- I'm reminded of the brawls that would break out in an afternoon audience if anyone dared whisper something to the person next to them while a movie was on. From somewhere in the house:

"Shhhhhhh!!!"
"Oh shut up, yourself"
(etc., etc., all in the interest of maintaining silence)

Good times.

Sorry for the lil' hijack. Back to the regularly-scheduled thread.