Tweet A toy projector footage found ?

http://precodecinema.blogspot.com/2005/ ... -gold.html


Darren, was you who found it ????

It's old newws, but still interesting...


Hey, does anybody knows if the yellowed look is due aging of 2 technicolor strip (some two color technicolor prints had dyes that faded). Maybe it was lab processed wrong, becaming two yellowed, and they send it to someone or selled as toy projetor footage. Bad technicolor prints (that had problems during lab processing) was usually not destroyed, but ent to someone or two small theatrer in small cities.

It's marvelous this previously lost footage has been found. With the new process of being able to make black and white pictures into colour - could it be feasible to utilise the found footage as the basis to reproduce the missing colour sequences?

Was the lost scene from GOLD DIGGERS OF BROADWAY suposed to be in 2 color technicolor ????

Computer colorization it's better today than in the 80's and 90's, and there are some beautiful works, but still not perfect, since it is basically a puzzle (lot of pieces). They segment the image for each object and pice, like face, lips, a jacket, a jar, and place a color spectrum over it (without afect the original gray levels).
The color depends on the gray scale to guide the color variances. For example, a apple be turns more red in the medium tones and a bit more yellowed in the brighter tones.
It's a 2D process, since perspective and texture mapping are often ignored.

But today with evolution 3D extimation algorithm being used for 3D conversion of 2D films, it's possible that 3D estimation and texture tracking could be adaptesd to make colorization closer to perfection.

Even though, you would need the B&W that was copied from the color footage, and in general the B&W sequences was not the same take of the correspondent color sequence.
For example, in The Phantom of the Opera the technicolor scenes was made for a limited runing, in sellected theaters, due the high cost of produce prints in such color system. So they shoot the same script scenes ,that would have technicolor, also in B&W. They would not just copy the color to B&W, as it was not sharp and also dark after duplication.

Phantom of Opera have the Masked Ball sequence in technicolor, it was found many year ago. But a small portion of the masked ball scene (the few last scenes) survived only in a B&W print (not same shot from technicolor since was shot in B&W for B*W distribution), and was colorized in the late 90's to a Photoplay restoration.
It was easy to noticed what was the original technicolor and what was the colorized footage.

Colorization also dpeends a lot of have a print or master with good dynamic range. The recent colorized foostage of WWI (made for History Channel) look quite poor, since most footage was very contrasting.

AND THERE IS NO WAY TO GUESS, DISCOVER, WHAT COLOR EACH THING WAS, UNLESS YOU FIND THE ENTIRE SETS AND THE FIGURINE SOMEWHERE, or references like color pictures.

It's marvelous this previously lost footage has been found. With the new process of being able to make black and white pictures into colour - could it be feasible to utilise the found footage as the basis to reproduce the missing colour sequences?

Hey, does anybody knows if the yellowed look is due aging of 2 technicolor strip (some two color technicolor prints had dyes that faded). Maybe it was lab processed wrong, becaming two yellowed, and they send it to someone or selled as toy projetor footage. Bad technicolor prints (that had problems during lab processing) was usually not destroyed, but ent to someone or two small theatrer in small cities.

My experience with handling dye-transfer 2-color has been that the color is just as stable as the 3-color system, judging from the R & G slugs in the leader. It's very obvious when something has faded, because not all dyes fade the same, and you can see it in the shadows first rather than the overall image. This was certainly the case with Technicolor's first commercial system of gluing dye-modant toned strips together—the green dye in that case was NOT stable and did fade.

But the problem that I think you're recognizing with the IB print is that there is no such thing as a pure neutral, because red and green are not true, complementary colors and therefore mix together with a little extra yellow on the emulsion.

http://precodecinema.blogspot.com/2005/11/lost-and-found-on-with-show-and-gold.html" target="_blank


Darren, was you who found it ????

Yes. Those are photos I took of it, also.

Both fragments were preserved by Warner Brothers.

Both of these feature films were entirely in color.

Darren,

is there any way to view the footage? Did they give you a copy? Even mute, I'd be fascinated to see those bits in action, especially that from "On With The Show."

Darren,

is there any way to view the footage? Did they give you a copy? Even mute, I'd be fascinated to see those bits in action, especially that from "On With The Show."

I have a copy as well as the original fragments. Since these are public domain I intend to telecine and upload to youtube one day.

Or perhaps they will be used as extras on a upcoming WB dvd.

I'm curious... Was this a lost film, surviving as just frew color fragments you found, or there are a B&W print of this somewhere ?

A important film, since it was the first "all talking all color" film. A example of what negligence with film preservation did.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_with_th ... (1929_film" target="_blank)

All Darc,

The answer is yes and no.

One fragment is from "On With the Show," which survives complete as a black-and-white dupe print. In fact, you can get it through the Warner Archive. However, no complete print of the original color version has surfaced, and in fact the fragment recovered by Darren was the first bit that's ever been uncovered.

The second fragment is from "The Gold Diggers of Broadway," which IS a lost film, except for two, incomplete reels making up the last 18-20 minutes of the film, a very brief shot from the opening which was preserved via a trailer made for "Gold Diggers of 1937" and the aforementioned fragment found by Darren. Apparently there was also a very, very brief fragment recovered, as mentioned in a recent Vitaphone Project newsletter.

Why the survival of one over the other? In the 1950s during the first golden age of television, many of these older movies were licensed for broadcast, with 16mm reduction prints made for exhibition. And since TV was black and white, there was seen no need to make color reduction prints. And when the original 35mm nitrates were lost or junked, all that remained were the BW copies. That is how "On With the Show" and indeed many early talkies survives.

However, in the case of "The Gold Diggers of Broadway," this was not done. Perhaps because it was already a lost film by the 1950s, though more likely because the vitaphone discs were separated from the print, and without them, the print was pretty much useless, and never copied before it was too late.

All in all a damn tragedy.

Interesting... Thanks.

I already saw a article talking about copies of technicolor film be made in B&W for TV. In case of some films they just copied one technicolor strip, instead of copy a dye tranfer print.

On With the Show, was shot on 2 color technicolor, which some people wronglly call two strip technicolor. Two color technicolor camera use only one strip, and a prism record two color matrix frames for each fraction of second of the camera gate, by using a beam splitter prism.





So I supose the B&W print for On With the Show have no way to be from just one color matrix, but a mix of both.
Considering that's the case, there is a chance to try to digitally colorize On with The Show, using the surviving color segments as reference, and also trying to search for sets, figurine, location, color photographs (rare for the 20's).

It would not be perfect, and many ones would not call it a restoration itself, but at least could help to create a view experience closer to the original film than just watch in B&W. And probably would require some few more technical advances in colorization, like the 3D estimation and texture tracking I talked earlier, to try avoid the disruption effect when natural color from surviving color segments is followed by a colorized segment.

And talking about vitaphone discs with no footage or no complete footage. It would be very fun try to make a movie to fit in a vitaphone recording. I bet nobody on Earth tried it before.

It is possible to have made a print from the original two-color neg, using a skip printing process, but it is more likely they just made a print from a nitrate positive, based on how soft the focus is in many color to black/white prints.

Interestingly, they've been able to restore the true color to some TV shows, because the black and white kinescopes captured the chroma dots of the original, which a computer program was able to decipher.

Sadly the same process doesn't work for dye transfer prints, so one would pretty much be stuck having to make best guess approximations.

There is a last restoration of Dr Who, where they use both process, digitall colorization and chroma dots analyze of the cinescope B&W recording from the color video signal. They use the Croma dot technology to find the exact colors, and combined it with digitall colorization to get the best results.

Columbia claims the Three Stooge colorization had intense color researching for sets and figurines, even for old cans of food that appear in a episode. We can't presume they found everything, but at least tried a lot.

Supose a intense research could be was made for On with The Show, and they find 90% of the true colors, itr would worth a colorization, if they refine the technology to use complete 3D estimation and texture mapping.

And of course, the color search need to be converted to 2 color technicolor look, since a color strip process significantly alter the color of objects and people. The surviving segments and study of the work of similar films in 2 color technicolor, can give precious clues to estimate the better technicolor balance.

Anyway the surviving B&W need to be in very good shape, and have fine dynamic range.

It is possible to have made a print from the original two-color neg, using a skip printing process, but it is more likely they just made a print from a nitrate positive, based on how soft the focus is in many color to black/white prints.

Interestingly, they've been able to restore the true color to some TV shows, because the black and white kinescopes captured the chroma dots of the original, which a computer program was able to decipher.

Sadly the same process doesn't work for dye transfer prints, so one would pretty much be stuck having to make best guess approximations.

I recall reading that research for the colorized Stooges. Unfortunately, there was a big flaw in their logic. They did not take into consideration the fact that for black and white productions, often times objects would not be painted the normal colors, so they stand out better in grayscale. Two objects that are different colors in color, may look the same shade of gray in black and white.

For example, the restorers reported finding a stove that was used in a scene, and that it was painted yellow, and so they colorized it yellow in the film! But it is far more likely it was painted yellow so it would photograph better in grayscale, not because of any basis in actuality.

Even for two-color productions, the colors were selected not for how they looked to the eye, but how they would photograph in the process, which could not render yellow, purple or blue. So even if you did track down original costumes and props, they wouldn't really be reliable indicators for recoloring the film.

You are right. B&W photography it's made to get distinguish look, contrast, beetween elements, and they have just the gray values to do that. Color photography have hues and saturation to work, and if you turn colors off, for example from a technicolor, many saturated elements will became a bit like a boring mediun gray, looking not like a film shot in B&W.

In some colorization a american flag can have red strips a bit pushed to pink, due use of a somewhat red filter during original shooting of the film, or due a use a flag with brighter strips, since they had in mind only the final B&W look. If you get a colorization tool and sellect red, and apply over a very bright gray B&W, you will get pink.
Even so many colorizations looks interesting and quite good.


The Stooges used a make-up with some green tone. But they did not colorize they with green skin...

But in the case of On With the Show it's different, cause the film was shot as a 2 color technicolor, and they did the photography and figurine wthinking about the colors. T
A research would be valid, cause they could simulated how the objects would look in 2 color technicolor.
Supose they found that a dress used in the films was blue. They can simulate how blue will look in a typical 2 color tech from early 30's. The few surviving color sequences can give clues of how the photographer director balanced the 2 color technicolor for this film.

I recall reading that research for the colorized Stooges. Unfortunately, there was a big flaw in their logic. They did not take into consideration the fact that for black and white productions, often times objects would not be painted the normal colors, so they stand out better in grayscale. Two objects that are different colors in color, may look the same shade of gray in black and white.

For example, the restorers reported finding a stove that was used in a scene, and that it was painted yellow, and so they colorized it yellow in the film! But it is far more likely it was painted yellow so it would photograph better in grayscale, not because of any basis in actuality.

Even for two-color productions, the colors were selected not for how they looked to the eye, but how they would photograph in the process, which could not render yellow, purple or blue. So even if you did track down original costumes and props, they wouldn't really be reliable indicators for recoloring the film.

[Christopher Jacobs]

And talking about vitaphone discs with no footage or no complete footage. It would be very fun try to make a movie to fit in a vitaphone recording. I bet nobody on Earth tried it before.

Actually, something very similar to this has been done with amazing success, although instead of discs to a lost film it used an original radio transcription. Back in 2010, a surprise hit at a number of film festivals around the country was the short, “Mildred Richards.” This audacious experiment by director Marc Kess was a beautifully photographed (black and white) and nicely edited visualization of a 1940s noirish murder-mystery, lip-synched to an actual 1940s radio drama recording. I haven't seen much about it for the past two years, but the director hoped to make more films with the same technique.

Impressive...

It probably was a "hell's work" to acting and keep lips perfectly synchonized at same time.

I was thinking about use CGI to create a film(animation) using a vitaphone discs that lost footage. They could search papers to find what actors performed the role, and the style of this actor in fillm that survied. The actors would be recreated somehow, or at least the CGI characters would ressamble them.

CGI animated films are getting more realistic. Adventures of Tintin have impressive results for a film made entirelly in CGI. But it was very expansive.

And talking about vitaphone discs with no footage or no complete footage. It would be very fun try to make a movie to fit in a vitaphone recording. I bet nobody on Earth tried it before.

Actually, something very similar to this has been done with amazing success, although instead of discs to a lost film it used an original radio transcription. Back in 2010, a surprise hit at a number of film festivals around the country was the short, “Mildred Richards.” This audacious experiment by director Marc Kess was a beautifully photographed (black and white) and nicely edited visualization of a 1940s noirish murder-mystery, lip-synched to an actual 1940s radio drama recording. I haven't seen much about it for the past two years, but the director hoped to make more films with the same technique.

It would be rewarding to see "On With the Show" in colour - but who would pay to do it? It may have more of a commercial success if the film was made into widescreen, the colour put back as three colour Technicolor instead of two, and the soundtrack re-vamped into stereophonic sensuround! Then of course all the purists would be up in arms...

It would be rewarding to see "On With the Show" in colour - but who would pay to do it? It may have more of a commercial success if the film was made into widescreen, the colour put back as three colour Technicolor instead of two, and the soundtrack re-vamped into stereophonic sensuround! Then of course all the purists would be up in arms...

If it were a good film (I've never seen it) it could be touted by the studio as a "new classic" like "Wings" is.

ON WITH THE SHOW is not a really great film. No memorable musical numbers and pedestrian acting. Having heard the Vitaphone track and seen the remaining footage of GDOB it appears Warners had learned a lot after their first Colour talkie effort. From what I have seen of GDOB it appears far better even if only fragmentary.

ON WITH THE SHOW is mainly distinguished by Ethel Water's "Am I Blue?" number.

ON WITH THE SHOW is not a really great film. No memorable musical numbers and pedestrian acting. Having heard the Vitaphone track and seen the remaining footage of GDOB it appears Warners had learned a lot after their first Colour talkie effort. From what I have seen of GDOB it appears far better even if only fragmentary.

That's hardly a reason not to attempt a restoration. "On With The Show" has an undeniable historic significance, along with "The Jazz Singer" and "Lights of New York," two other films whose historical significance far outweigh their quality when compared to what was being made by Chaplin, Keaton, Lloyd, Von Stroheim, Murnau and Vidor.

On With the Show has another virtue. It explodes the myth that the sound era set back innovation in camera movement and composition. The opening tracking shot is a revelation.

ON WITH THE SHOW is not a really great film. No memorable musical numbers and pedestrian acting. Having heard the Vitaphone track and seen the remaining footage of GDOB it appears Warners had learned a lot after their first Colour talkie effort. From what I have seen of GDOB it appears far better even if only fragmentary.

That's hardly a reason not to attempt a restoration. "On With The Show" has an undeniable historic significance, along with "The Jazz Singer" and "Lights of New York," two other films whose historical significance far outweigh their quality when compared to what was being made by Chaplin, Keaton, Lloyd, Von Stroheim, Murnau and Vidor.

On With the Show has another virtue. It explodes the myth that the sound era set back innovation in camera movement and composition. The opening tracking shot is a revelation.

I do agree with you about it's historical significance but it would be a very expensive exercise with no hppe of recouping costs. A labour of love for sure or a rich benefactor. Faking the colours may not appeal to purists and the film never had the public profile of GDOB and the titles you mentioned. If a an original colour copy turned up it may be different story. I would prefer to see early musicals like Follow Thru which exists in an excellent colour print but is rarely seen given the full restoration treatment and released.

I dream of a boxed set of early color films...the surviving color fragments from On With the Show, Golddiggers of Broadway, Sally, The Rogue Song, and then the complete versions of The Vagabond King, Follow Thru and Under a Texas Moon.

I'm excited to learn that KING OF JAZZ is due for major restoration, now that a better print has been found at the Library of Congress.

Oh yes, a thrill. The only shame is the resto will probably take a year

Vitaphone Project posted a few stills from the nitrate, and the colors are gorgeous...night and day compared to the miserable VHS release with its hamfisted attempts to inject blue into the proceedings.

King of Jazz is a singularly unusual example, in that it seems to survive in all incarnations: the original cut, the shortened cut, and both sound on film, and sound on disc tracks survive.

I surely hope the blu-ray has both versions (perhaps via seamless branching?), and both soundtracks. Sure, the optical is the original, best quality, and the sound on disc merely a copy, but there is something about the pop, hiss and crackle of sound on disc that I find so charming and aurally rich!

How many other treasure Library of Congress have yet to find in their own vaults ?