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Apparently Roscoe Arbuckle's purple Rolls failed to sell at a recent auction (the Batmobile went for over $4 million). Harold Lloyd's car DID sell, but at no particular "star" premium.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/27/autom ... l?hpw&_r=0" target="_blank

Rodney wrote:Apparently Roscoe Arbuckle's purple Rolls failed to sell at a recent auction (the Batmobile went for over $4 million). Harold Lloyd's car DID sell, but at no particular "star" premium.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/27/autom ... l?hpw&_r=0" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

That's not Arbuckle's Rolls--that's the Pierce Arrow.

Yet another shining example from the Baby (verb, not noun) Boomers with too damn many dollars and no sense. When W's car sells for more than Harold Lloyd's and nobody cares about Roscoe Arbuckles Pierce-Arrow, a true thing of beauty over any of the others mentioned. Truly, no one will miss this generation when we're gone.


RICHARD M ROBERTS

I'm astounded that true vintage car lovers (like myself) of any generation (also a BB, it shames me to say) would be more swayed by "celebrity" than the quality & rarity of the vehicle...and P-A was very nearly the best money could buy in this country, & the first car acquired by the White House. Paint color probably turned off some collectors, but still...

Frederica wrote:

Rodney wrote:Apparently Roscoe Arbuckle's purple Rolls failed to sell at a recent auction (the Batmobile went for over $4 million). Harold Lloyd's car DID sell, but at no particular "star" premium.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/27/autom ... l?hpw&_r=0" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

That's not Arbuckle's Rolls--that's the Pierce Arrow.

Ack! As soon as I posted, I saw the mistake, confirmed from the source, and went back and edited... apparently it didn't take. Sorry if anyone was misled. I DO know the difference between a Pierce Arrow and a Rolls. (And I'm not sure we know what the "reserve price" was, so it could have been substantially more than W's truck...)

Rodney wrote:

Frederica wrote:

Rodney wrote:Apparently Roscoe Arbuckle's purple Rolls failed to sell at a recent auction (the Batmobile went for over $4 million). Harold Lloyd's car DID sell, but at no particular "star" premium.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/27/autom ... l?hpw&_r=0" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

That's not Arbuckle's Rolls--that's the Pierce Arrow.

Ack! As soon as I posted, I saw the mistake, confirmed from the source, and went back and edited... apparently it didn't take. Sorry if anyone was misled. I DO know the difference between a Pierce Arrow and a Rolls. (And I'm not sure we know what the "reserve price" was, so it could have been substantially more than W's truck...)

Quite; it may well be that the vendor was simply too greedy and put an unreasonable reserve on the thing. Plus......I know and you know about Arbucle, but it's still a controversial name. To many of the general public, however wealthy, Arbuckle's name may actually have a negative effect rather than a positive one on the price.

Rodney wrote: I DO know the difference between a Pierce Arrow and a Rolls.

Owing, probably, to the custom bodywork, this P-A lacks the famous, patented, P-A trademark: headlights faired into the front fenders; maybe this too, along with the paint, depressed interest. And why the right-hand drive?

I attended the auction, got a chance to chat with both the owner and 'restorer' of Arbuckle's P.A. They said they spent nearly 2 full years working on it. Bidding went to $1.1 million where it stalled. Clearly the reserve was more than that, but there's no telling how much more. btw, the car was beautiful.

Too high a reserve doesn't mean no one wanted it.

entredeuxguerres wrote:

Rodney wrote: I DO know the difference between a Pierce Arrow and a Rolls.

Owing, probably, to the custom bodywork, this P-A lacks the famous, patented, P-A trademark: headlights faired into the front fenders; maybe this too, along with the paint, depressed interest. And why the right-hand drive?

The car originally had right hand drive.
http://www.saloncollection.com/2013/1919-pierce-arrow/" target="_blank" target="_blank

bigshot wrote:Too high a reserve doesn't mean no one wanted it.

True. And in response to an earlier post, I also don't think that it means that the owner was "greedy." These cars are not cheap things to maintain and restore, and apparently this isn't the market for it. Once the new Arbuckle DVD collection is released...

I'm glad to know that the purple-blue color is original. A photo caption in David Yallop's "The Day the Laughter Stopped" indicates that the original price was $25,000, and that it had a bar and toilet. I haven't seen the toilet mentioned in the recent coverage, so perhaps that's either not considered a plus, or the toilet was removed at some point (or "toilet" in 1919 news reports may have been the old-school meaning of "make-up station" rather than "john").

Rodney wrote:

bigshot wrote:Too high a reserve doesn't mean no one wanted it.

True. And in response to an earlier post, I also don't think that it means that the owner was "greedy." These cars are not cheap things to maintain and restore, and apparently this isn't the market for it. Once the new Arbuckle DVD collection is released...

I'm glad to know that the purple-blue color is original. A photo caption in David Yallop's "The Day the Laughter Stopped" indicates that the original price was $25,000, and that it had a bar and toilet. I haven't seen the toilet mentioned in the recent coverage, so perhaps that's either not considered a plus, or the toilet was removed at some point (or "toilet" in 1919 news reports may have been the old-school meaning of "make-up station" rather than "john").

It never had a toilet in it. I'm not sure about the bar, Paul will know, but I doubt it, it was built in 1919; the 18th Amendment was ratified on January 16, 1919. That photo of Arbuckle sitting on the running board of the car looking all forlorn was not taken during the time period of the scandal, either--the car is parked in front of a car dealership in San Francisco. This website states the original price was $32K, but Paul could also confirm original cost.
http://automotive.speedtv.com/article/v ... tt-jackso/" target="_blank" target="_blank

[quote="Frederica"]
The car originally had right hand drive.

Of course it's original--the question was why? I've driven a right-hand drive--hugely aggravating; that's why r-h drive English cars generally bring less in this county than those manufactured for the US market.

Rodney wrote:I haven't seen the toilet mentioned in the recent coverage, so perhaps that's either not considered a plus, or the toilet was removed at some point (or "toilet" in 1919 news reports may have been the old-school meaning of "make-up station" rather than "john").

I'm sure the latter meaning was intended--it was probably built into the full-width wooden cabinet mounted behind the front seat. Ladies' "toilet sets" were being manufactued until fairly recently, & no doubt some of the fancier sets can be found on ebay.

The purple might be original, but I find it eye-searingly hideous: if someone today chose that shade we'd call it tasteless. Maybe seeing the past in black and white is a blessing sometimes.

FrankFay wrote:The purple might be original, but I find it eye-searingly hideous: if someone today chose that shade we'd call it tasteless. Maybe seeing the past in black and white is a blessing sometimes.

It is a bit shocking, maybe the photos aren't properly reflecting the color. Mr. Topchap said the car is beautiful. The Nethercutt Museum in Sylmar has another of Arbuckle's cars.

entredeuxguerres wrote:I'm astounded that true vintage car lovers (like myself) of any generation (also a BB, it shames me to say) would be more swayed by "celebrity" than the quality & rarity of the vehicle...and P-A was very nearly the best money could buy in this country, & the first car acquired by the White House. Paint color probably turned off some collectors, but still...

That's a gorgeous shade of blue, if the photo is anything to go by! Same shade of blue as my eyes!

Jim

Jim Roots wrote: That's a gorgeous shade of blue, if the photo is anything to go by! Same shade of blue as my eyes!

Jim

You and Elizabeth Taylor, eh?

So when did car colors (acceptability thereof) become culturally concrete? Black is good. Grey is good. Some shades of blue are good, but purple is not good. Red is good, but orange is not and neither is pink (unless you're Angelyne). It's all arbitrary, but when did those color choices become set in stone?

A Google image search for [arbuckle pierce-arrow] will turn up quite a few in which the color tends more toward the blue than purple. As for colors generally in that era, try a Google images search for [touring car] + a year between 1910 and 1920.

Paul Penna wrote:A Google image search for [arbuckle pierce-arrow] will turn up quite a few in which the color tends more toward the blue than purple. As for colors generally in that era, try a Google images search for [touring car] + a year between 1910 and 1920.

I'm more interested in when arbitrary standards of taste began to be applied to car colors, as opposed to what was available.

Frederica wrote:I'm more interested in when arbitrary standards of taste began to be applied to car colors, as opposed to what was available.

I'm not so sure you could come up with an across-the-board date, or for that matter divorce it from cultural attitudes about colors in general or specifically in relation to colors of other things. For instance: Victorian home colors. These days we often seen them as "painted ladies" with a wild variety of colors highlighting architectural details and decorative elements. When built, they were generally either all-white or some very muted pastel with a minimum variation for different structural segments. Back then the color schemes we often see today would be regarded as outlandish, if not a sign of a house of ill repute.

Certain colors can also have cultural associations specific to a certain time. Purple for cars, for example, fell out of favor for several decades because people thought it made them look like pimpmobiles, and it's only relatively recently that it's been offered as a standard color choice. In fact, color for cars in general has only recently started coming back in fashion after twenty years or so of black, white and silver. Just look at any parking lot.

Rodney wrote:

bigshot wrote:Too high a reserve doesn't mean no one wanted it.

True. And in response to an earlier post, I also don't think that it means that the owner was "greedy." These cars are not cheap things to maintain and restore, and apparently this isn't the market for it. Once the new Arbuckle DVD collection is released...

I'm glad to know that the purple-blue color is original. A photo caption in David Yallop's "The Day the Laughter Stopped" indicates that the original price was $25,000, and that it had a bar and toilet. I haven't seen the toilet mentioned in the recent coverage, so perhaps that's either not considered a plus, or the toilet was removed at some point (or "toilet" in 1919 news reports may have been the old-school meaning of "make-up station" rather than "john").

It would be funny if Arbucle's car had a toilet.
I know Michael Jackson's Rolls that sold a few years ago originally had a bidet in the back seat.
I would love to own Fatty Arbuckle's car, not because it beloned to Fatty Arbuckle his car is a 1919 Pierce-Arrow in purple. That car would look great going down 202 .

The Model T Ford, famously, came in any color you wanted as long as it was black. (That said, when I was a kid, my favorite Corgi Toy Model T was red.)

I imagine in a market where the mass-produced cheap car is black, purple-blue is an additional way of pointing out that you aren't driving a Model T.

Most cars that are intended to be "edgy" -- the Nissan Cube, the sporty little hatchbacks, even the new Beetle when it was introduced -- are available in at least one eye-catching color like orange or bright yellow. Or how about a stainless steel deLorean? It's a way of saying "Notice how I didn't buy a Honda Civic?"

Can't help you with the trends. And, of course, photos from 1910 through 1930 tend to be black and white. I suppose that catalogs magazine ads, or dealers manuals might tell you the available color names (if you can figure out what "Heather Mist" means), and visits to large car museums.

Paul Penna wrote:For instance: Victorian home colors. These days we often seen them as "painted ladies" with a wild variety of colors highlighting architectural details and decorative elements. When built, they were generally either all-white or some very muted pastel with a minimum variation for different structural segments. Back then the color schemes we often see today would be regarded as outlandish, if not a sign of a house of ill repute.

I had experience that was opposite -- an old Victorian house being used as a dormitory (Johnson House) on the Oberlin College campus was painted white when I arrived at the college. The building was restored, and they looked under the white paint, and found that the original palette was quite a bit wilder. It caused quite a stir when repainted in its original colors.

Frederica wrote: I'm more interested in when arbitrary standards of taste began to be applied to car colors, as opposed to what was available.

When? When the first primitive automobiles (Ford called his inital machine a Quadracycle) rolled out of the small machine shops that built them. The "arbitrary standards of taste" applied to them were no different than those applied to coaches & carriages, locomotives, steam engines, machine tools, any no. of other products, all of which could be had in many shades of green, blue, red, brown, though probably most often black. Only a handful of colors were truly outre, such as purple & pink. Why? Maybe genetics, as most level-headed folks seem to harbor this same "prejudice." "Most" of course doesn't mean "all," & there are always attention-seekers like Arbuckle who'd choose a "deviant" color expressly for its shock value.

Ford chose black for the T not for its moralistic implications, but merely because it was cheaper than other colors, & EVERY element in the T's design was aimed at reducing cost.

It wasn't just the cheapest color, it covered using fewer coats and it dried fast.

I once saw a late '50s or early '60s pink and black Lincoln car at a car show, which brought back vague memories of seeing them as a child. This color combo was a fad for a while, I had a portable plastic chess set in the same colors. Those colors were also used on a paperback book that I had for years after.

Speaking of Lincoln, Abraham Lincoln's home in Springfield, IL, when restored, was found to have the most garish wallpaper imaginable under all the newer layers. I believe that they have made copies of those patterns and installed them. The outside of the house, the last time I saw it, was tan or beige. I believe they think that was the color in Lincoln's time.

I can't find it on Google easily, but I thought I remembered that the wild car colors of the 1970s (?) were abandoned at the car plants when it was found that the compounds necessary for those colors were a danger to the employees.

Rick

What an incredible vehicle! (And I love the colour!)

Frederica wrote:

Paul Penna wrote:A Google image search for [arbuckle pierce-arrow] will turn up quite a few in which the color tends more toward the blue than purple. As for colors generally in that era, try a Google images search for [touring car] + a year between 1910 and 1920.

I'm more interested in when arbitrary standards of taste began to be applied to car colors, as opposed to what was available.

Francis X. Bushman had a car (a Marmon to be precise) variously described as purple or lavender.

greta

Rick Lanham wrote: Speaking of Lincoln, Abraham Lincoln's home in Springfield, IL, when restored, was found to have the most garish wallpaper imaginable under all the newer layers.
Rick

Which inevitably brings up the famous story of Oscar Wilde, dying in a Paris hotel room, looking at the psychedelic red wallpaper and saying, "Either this wallpaper goes, or I must." And it was Oscar who went.

The room is maintained as a museum and, yes, it does have that eye-scratching red wallpaper still.

Jim