ENCHANTMENT first glimpse

Gagman 66 · Post by **Gagman 66** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:39 pm

Louie,

What? If I were Ed I sure as heck wouldn't put this up on Youtube. Order a copy from him, Proceeds will help to start the fund for the next project. Since the film is already scored, public-domain, and transfer to digital medium has been bought and paid for he should pitch this to Kino, Flicker Alley, or even TCM's Chuck Tabesh for potential broadcast. Assuming that it is OK with the LOC? Alright with Sousin? I don't see why it wouldn't be?

drednm · Post by **drednm** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:40 am

Marion Davies ... Ethel Hoyt
Forrest Stanley ... Ernest Eddison
Edith Shayne ... Mrs. Hoyt
Tom Lewis ... Mr. Hoyt
Arthur Rankin ... Tommy Corbin
Corinne Barker ... Nalia
Maude Turner Gordon ... Mrs. Leigh
Edith Lyle ... Fairy Tale Queen
Huntley Gordon ... Fairy Tale King

R Michael Pyle · Post by **R Michael Pyle** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:53 am

Received mine yesterday. Beautifully packaged! Looking forward to watching it - maybe tonight! Thank you, Ed, for all of your work on this project.

LouieD · Post by **LouieD** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:58 am

Gagman 66 wrote:Louie,

What? If I were Ed I sure as heck wouldn't put this up on Youtube. Order a copy from him, Proceeds will help to start the fund for the next project. Since the film is already scored, public-domain, and transfer to digital medium has been bought and paid for he should pitch this to Kino, Flicker Alley, or even TCM's Chuck Tabesh for potential broadcast. Assuming that it is OK with the LOC? Alright with Sousin? I don't see why it wouldn't be?

Oh, so it's OK to put everything else up on You Tube but not this project? I get it.

Rodney · Post by **Rodney** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:00 am

LouieD wrote:Would someone PLEASE upload this to YouTube so we all could enjoy it?

You all can enjoy it. I believe that it's for sale.

boblipton · Post by **boblipton** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:06 am

LouieD wrote:
Gagman 66 wrote:Louie,

What? If I were Ed I sure as heck wouldn't put this up on Youtube. Order a copy from him, Proceeds will help to start the fund for the next project. Since the film is already scored, public-domain, and transfer to digital medium has been bought and paid for he should pitch this to Kino, Flicker Alley, or even TCM's Chuck Tabesh for potential broadcast. Assuming that it is OK with the LOC? Alright with Sousin? I don't see why it wouldn't be?
Oh, so it's OK to put everything else up on You Tube but not this project? I get it.

While it would be nice to have it available on Youtube, the Sosin score -- which is great -- is new, copyright and should not be made available on Youtube. In any case, not to be dog-in-the-mangerish, Ed did a lot of work, deserves some props and the thought that it might show up on TCM is very appealing.

Bob

entredeuxguerres · Post by **entredeuxguerres** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:19 am

boblipton wrote:...the thought that it might show up on TCM is very appealing.

Bob

Appealing, but not, I think, highly probable, given TCM's lukewarm interest in silents. For the last 10 yrs or so, it seems to me the same ones have been shown over & over again; that, let me hasten to add, is of course infinitely preferable to nothing!

Post by **Mike Gebert** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:33 am

I don't think that's really true. They have apparently not been budgeted to score more of the MGM and Warners catalog, so yes, Ben-Hur plays a lot. But they've licensed a lot of things, from the Sennett shorts to The Late Matthias Pascal. Seems to me they're finding ways to support silents by other means than they did 10 years ago.

Also I'm pretty sure that Louie is making fun of the "it exists, why wasn't it made immediately available to me in every way I find convenient" mentality.

Like Ben Model's releases, I think this is a great model for how non-professionals can get something out there to an audience that would be interested in it and in a way that doesn't involve them sinking a bunch of money into a pit never to be seen again. If Ed is able to make it available to post-Kickstarter buyers you should definitely pick it up.

drednm · Post by **drednm** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:40 am

TCM would of course be great but is indeed a long shot at best.

Youtube is out because, as mentioned, the music score is copyrighted.

Just checked Amazon, and selling SEEMS to require (at first) glance registering as a "business," obtaining UPC codes, etc. Where I'm not going to be selling other DVDs on Amazon, it seems a bit much to sell probably fewer than 10.

If anyone is interested, contact me privately and I'm sure we can reach an agreement. Again, I didn't start this project as a money maker (not that there's anything wrong with that), and I certainly want the film to be seen by as many people as possible.

boblipton · Post by **boblipton** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:41 am

I mentioned in my IMDB review, Ed, that you have copies for sale and included your email address. Good luck selling extra copies.

As for TCM, it is a long shot, but I hope you take it.

Bob

LouieD · Post by **LouieD** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:21 am

boblipton wrote: While it would be nice to have it available on Youtube, the Sosin score -- which is great -- is new, copyright and should not be made available on Youtube. In any case, not to be dog-in-the-mangerish, Ed did a lot of work, deserves some props and the thought that it might show up on TCM is very appealing.

Bob

Oh, that's OK. I can strip that off and add my own score, so we're all good.

rudyfan · Post by **rudyfan** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:20 am

Thanks Ed! I received mine in the mail, it will be a weekend treat. It was a pleasure to kick in some dough for such a worthy cause.

Louie, you kill me!

entredeuxguerres · Post by **entredeuxguerres** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:26 am

drednm wrote: Just checked Amazon, and selling SEEMS to require (at first) glance registering as a "business," obtaining UPC codes, etc. Where I'm not going to be selling other DVDs on Amazon, it seems a bit much to sell probably fewer than 10.

If so, forget that BS! Ebay would serve as well for this purpose, without the red tape.

JFK · Post by **JFK** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:03 pm

Some thoughts/questions:
1. Assuming part of the Library of Congress’ mission is digitalizing its media collection, should not they have digitalized Enchantment “for free” and provided copies to us for the cost of either a streaming video OR a media-mailed DVD?

2. Copies of A Thief Catcher -thanks very much- will soon be available as a part of a Keystone DVD collection that should be on the shelves of every large-sized public library and comedy fan. The up-to-now sole known copy of A Thief Catcher was found by a life-long film historian/producer/collector. Would it be fair to him if someone else eventually placed a music-free Thief Catcher on Youtube or on Amazon? Would not such actions discourage other private owners of rare/unique public domain films from sharing?

3. From Enchantment’s Kickstarter page

“Each donor who receives a copy of ENCHANTMENT is free to edit the film or add a music track as they wish……. My hope is that the film will eventually be prepared for commercial DVD release but that is not the immediate goal of this campaign.”

My feeling is that drednm should be the only one marketing and profiting from extra copies of Enchantment, but how can others be discouraged from competing, or alternatively, suing for a cut should it wind up on TCM? And nothing is said in the Kickstarter statement that restricts any funding contributor from selling, or Youtubing, duplicates of the film.

4. In another thread Questions About Ordering A Copy Of A PD Film From LoC , I suggested we form a "film a month" LOC PD syndicate:

To charge members much more than $10 a film might prompt some members to make and market their own duplicates for a price much less than $10. .....(One would hope/guess that members would not put copies of their syndicate copies on Youtube- since wrecking the syndicate and its good work- at no profit to themselves- would be against their own-self interest).

In other words, I think a price-cut, or Youtubed, version of Enchantment, or at least an immediately-Youtubed version of the film, would impair future Kickstarter efforts at liberating other PD titles from the LOC. Why contribute if you think you a film will soon be available for less on Amazon, or for free on Youtube?

5. Perhaps similar Kickstarter campaigns should restrict contributors from posting/selling copies for a period of two years, and/or limit sales within that two year period to those done by a project’s initiator.

LouieD · Post by **LouieD** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:26 pm

JFK wrote:
Some thoughts/questions:
1. Assuming part of the Library of Congress’ mission is digitalizing its media collection, should not they have digitalized Enchantment “for free” and provided copies to us for the cost of either a streaming video OR a media-mailed DVD?

2. Copies of A Thief Catcher -thanks very much- will soon be available as a part of a Keystone DVD collection that should be on the shelves of every large-sized public library and comedy fan. The up-to-now sole known copy of A Thief Catcher was found by a life-long film historian/producer/collector. Would it be fair to him if someone else eventually placed a music-free Thief Catcher on Youtube or on Amazon? Would not such actions discourage other private owners of rare/unique public domain films from sharing?

3. From Enchantment’s Kickstarter page
“Each donor who receives a copy of ENCHANTMENT is free to edit the film or add a music track as they wish……. My hope is that the film will eventually be prepared for commercial DVD release but that is not the immediate goal of this campaign.”
My feeling is that drednm should be the only one marketing and profiting from extra copies of Enchantment, but how can others be discouraged from competing, or alternatively, suing for a cut should it wind up on TCM? And nothing is said in the Kickstarter statement that restricts any funding contributor from selling, or Youtubing, duplicates of the film.

4. In another thread Questions About Ordering A Copy Of A PD Film From LoC , I suggested we form a "film a month" LOC PD syndicate:
To charge members much more than $10 a film might prompt some members to make and market their own duplicates for a price much less than $10. .....(One would hope/guess that members would not put copies of their syndicate copies on Youtube- since wrecking the syndicate and its good work- at no profit to themselves- would be against their own-self interest).
In other words, I think a price-cut, or Youtubed, version of Enchantment, or at least an immediately-Youtubed version of the film, would impair future Kickstarter efforts at liberating other PD titles from the LOC. Why contribute if you think you a film will soon be available for less on Amazon, or for free on Youtube?

5. Perhaps similar Kickstarter campaigns should restrict contributors from posting/selling copies for a period of two years, and/or limit sales within that two year period to those done by a project’s initiator.

Perfect.

Post by **Mike Gebert** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:29 pm

My answer to all of the above is, I'm not worried about it.

If Ed ever made money off it, and I do mean if, good for him for taking the initiative. Personally, I have things pre-ordered with Flicker Alley and can't see any real difference between that model and this Kickstarter one.

Anyway, as noted before, the comment about YouTube was a gibe at people who think everything should fall into their lap from the Great White Father in Washington (or rather, Culpepper). Not a serious suggestion.

drednm · Post by **drednm** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:32 pm

JFK ... you have to remember that when I started this, I thought it might have a 50-50 chance of succeeding. All I was looking for was a DVD of the film. As the project went along offers came in to provide music, artwork, etc. I accepted and added these to the scope of the project 1) because they greatly enhance the film, and 2) because I needed to spend all the money I collected. I also upgraded the copy of the film to allow a high-definition transfer at sound speed. This required me to use a local film archive to help put the film back together (it came in 4 huge video files) trim out the "reel number" notifications and change the fps to match the score, and then convert the whole thing into a DVD format.

None of this was imagined when I wrote the Kickstarter material. While the film is in the public domain, the music score is copyrighted by the composer. I have a letter of agreement allowing me use of it, but without permissions, the film as is cannot be uploaded to Youtube.

However, there is nothing to prevent someone from uploading a mute version (I have no copyright on the film) or even a version with a different music score. While I think that would be shoddy and harm the film, I can't stop it.

I hope others will take the success of the ENCHANTMENT project and rescue other films from archival oblivion, films that may occasionally get trotted out for festival but films that are very unlikely to have commercial releases. There are lessons to be learned from the process and things that could have been done differently. But the bottom line is that with film buffs associated with Nitrateville and a few other wen sites, it can be done. We don't need to linger hopefully and only wish someone else would release a film.

drednm · Post by **drednm** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:34 pm

Oh yes. And for anyone considering a Kickstarter campaign, remember that this project funded in ONE DAY.

Rodney · Post by **Rodney** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:48 pm

drednm wrote: Just checked Amazon, and selling SEEMS to require (at first) glance registering as a "business," obtaining UPC codes, etc. Where I'm not going to be selling other DVDs on Amazon, it seems a bit much to sell probably fewer than 10.

If anyone is interested, contact me privately and I'm sure we can reach an agreement. Again, I didn't start this project as a money maker (not that there's anything wrong with that), and I certainly want the film to be seen by as many people as possible.

That's probably easiest, of course -- you can have people send you money via Paypal, and then you don't even need to sign up for credit card processing. If you have a web site that you control, Paypal does have a fairly easy to use "buy now" button code page, where you can generate the codes you need to put purchasing buttons on the web site without having to know much about coding. If you bought the silent film calendar this year, that's how that works, and there were quite a few purchases of that.

Post by **Mike Gebert** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:55 pm

If you have a web site that you control, Paypal does have a fairly easy to use "buy now" button code page, where you can generate the codes you need to put purchasing buttons on the web site without having to know much about coding.

If Ed wants to do that, I can put up a page here that includes the links to whatever payment mechanism he wants to set up.

Big Silent Fan · Post by **Big Silent Fan** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 3:19 pm

To Ed's credit, I believe this was never about the money, or any desire to profit from this effort which surely took some effort to accomplish. It's understandable some here continue to think everything should be available absolutely free, since we often can enjoy efforts from others without shelling out a dime.
With all the talk about ways to turn this into a business venture, Ed's estimate that there's very little to be made by doing so certainly reflects reality and the attitude of those who want to see it for free. Ed didn't get to do this without a lot of effort on his part. The quality and score certainly certainly should make it a candidate for a future TCM broadcast.

I watched my copy today, enjoying some Cabernet while watching Marion Davies once again steal my heart away for 90 minutes. I've seen her more well known silents, but this is now my favorite Davies Silent picture. The piano score worked wonderfully with the film's story.

Post by **Danny Burk** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 3:27 pm

I think we all owe Ed a BIG "thank you" for taking the initiative, as well as his time and effort, in doing this. Many of us talk about doing something like this, but few of us get off our lazy butts to do anything about it, waiting for things to come to us instead. So.....thanks again, Ed, and I hope that this will be just the first to come, if you're willing to repeat the process.

It would be the height of bad taste for someone else to dupe the DVD and offer it elsewhere, especially for sale at a profit. Nevertheless, it will probably happen.

JFK · Post by **JFK** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:27 pm

drednm wrote:JFK ... you have to remember that .....

Just to make my prior post clear(er), I certainly meant no criticism of your Kickstarter prospectus, nor of the manner in which you handled the funding, spending, or production of the DVD. On the contrary, though it’ll sound cornball, I believe that what you did was noble and good and difficult to the point of bravery, spearheading what was initially a one-man production, done on the fly from scratch. You not only saved a film- a work of art- for future generations, you painstakingly enhanced and showcased it, thereby honoring all those who worked on it 90 years ago. And, in the process, by your example, you’ve provided a template and a path for others who might come after you. Would that you’d do it once more.
What I was trying to say in my earlier post was, while some Enchantment funders may share “silent” copies with select pals,
I feel it’d be best for the sake of future Kickstarter campaigns that
1. no copies be posted on Youtube for perhaps a few years, and
2. that- in the short term - if any copies are to be sold on Amazon, or elsewhere,
a. It’d be best if the project’s initiator (you) were the one doing it,
b. preferably at a price higher than the Kickstarter minimum requirement.
Oh , and I’d rejoice if Enchantment showed up on TCM/PBS etc, and I think you’d deserve every penny that might accrue from it having done so. I was merely trying to suggest/warn that any future similar Kickstarter campaign prospectus might have to be crafted to elucidate funder rights and obligations, if only to discourage Kickstarter contributors from claiming an unearned piece of any unanticipated pie. Anyway, a friend who processed my Enchantment Kickstarter share for me will be dropping off my DVD this weekend. So thanks very much to you and all the other Kickstarter funders.

Gagman 66 · Post by **Gagman 66** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:57 pm

Yeah it's amazing what Ed has accomplished here! I wonder if we couldn't get an LOC Transfer comparable to this, at the right speed of WHEN KNIGHTHOOD WAS IN FLOWER? The old Videobrary VHS release just doesn't cut it. I'm also curious about HAIL THE WOMAN. For a even more challenging progress I wonder if we could start up a campaign to get a transfer made of HER WILD OAT to be scored by Vince Giordano and Nighthawks for TCM? If Girdano is still scoring the remainder of SYNTHETIC SIN without sound discs, Why not the complete HER WILD OAT? I would have said LILAC TIME, but again we run into the trouble of the 3 presumably still missing sound discs and copyright issues that would make it next to impossible to replicate all of the music that is missing.Course it doesn't have to be Vince. Maybe Mont Alto would be interested or even Pearcherine Orchestra. I am surprised no one has hired them yet.

boblipton · Post by **boblipton** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:08 pm

Gagman 66 wrote: Yeah it's amazing what Ed has accomplished here! I wonder if we couldn't get an LOC Transfer comparable to this, at the right speed of WHEN KNIGHTHOOD WAS IN FLOWER? The old Videobrary VHS release just doesn't cut it. I'm also curious about HAIL THE WOMAN. For a even more challenging progress I wonder if we could start up a campaign to get a transfer made of HER WILD OAT to be scored by Vince Giordano and Nighthawks for TCM? If Girdano is still scoring the remainder of SYNTHETIC SIN without sound discs, Why not the complete HER WILD OAT? I would have said LILAC TIME, but again we run into the trouble of the 3 presumably still missing sound discs and copyright issues that would make it next to impossible to replicate all of the music that is missing.Course it doesn't have to be Vince. Maybe Mont Alto would be interested or even Pearcherine Orchestra. I am surprised no one has hired them yet.

Or perhaps you can do it without a soundtrack and someone may volunteer or someone else may take a look at the result and produce something. If you do what you can, then you will accomplish something. If you insist on getting it perfect, it may never get done.

Bob

Gagman 66 · Post by **Gagman 66** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:21 pm

Well, If Sousin is interested it would be OK with me. Not a big fan of his scores but I liked most of his work on ENCHANTMENT, and also on BIG STAKES.

Rodney · Post by **Rodney** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:03 pm

Gagman 66 wrote: Yeah it's amazing what Ed has accomplished here! I wonder if we couldn't get an LOC Transfer comparable to this, at the right speed of WHEN KNIGHTHOOD WAS IN FLOWER? The old Videobrary VHS release just doesn't cut it. I'm also curious about HAIL THE WOMAN. For a even more challenging progress I wonder if we could start up a campaign to get a transfer made of HER WILD OAT to be scored by Vince Giordano and Nighthawks for TCM? If Girdano is still scoring the remainder of SYNTHETIC SIN without sound discs, Why not the complete HER WILD OAT? I would have said LILAC TIME, but again we run into the trouble of the 3 presumably still missing sound discs and copyright issues that would make it next to impossible to replicate all of the music that is missing.Course it doesn't have to be Vince. Maybe Mont Alto would be interested or even Pearcherine Orchestra. I am surprised no one has hired them yet.

Some of these are post-1922, so you'd need to make sure that copyright is cleared before you can do much with it. I don't know if Lilac Time was allowed to lapse, but I'd be more worried about the film copyright than the music discs copyrights.

LouieD · Post by **LouieD** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:26 pm

Gagman 66 wrote: I'm also curious about HAIL THE WOMAN.

Is this on blu-ray yet? I only buy blu-ray.

Gagman 66 · Post by **Gagman 66** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:36 pm

Rodney,

No LILAC TIME is not Public-Domain, nor is HER WILD OAT. But what difference would it make if we are helping to fund a transfer for TCM? I mean,funding has to come from someplace. I'm talking about a whole different deal here, but it starts in the same way. Bottom line is TCM can't show what they don't have a broadcast master of. I'm talking of starting a drive to fund a broadcast master. Not right now, but at some point. All hypothetical.

I mentioned WHEN KNIGHTHOOD WAS IN FLOWER because it is Public-Domain. I figured that all the Talmadge stuff probably had donor restrictions someplace, but I'm not sure why that is such a road block either? At least it's getting the material out of moth balls. So why should have be dead set against it?

Since TCM revamped it's forums a few weeks ago I have been able to log in, but can't read new posts or any posts. It says that each forum category is protected. I have sent them E-mails but no one has responded? What the heck can I do? I've been a member since at least 2003. I didn't want to change my password but I did even though I shouldn't have needed too. Prior to changing the Password I could no longer log-in but could read posts. Now It's just the opposite? I can log in but all content is protected and I supposedly lack permission to contribute?

drednm · Post by **drednm** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:03 am

Jeff.... the TCM boards are a mess. Everyone needed to re-register from scratch and THEN try to change information to match your old account. It worked for some and not for others. M old "account" was lost (all my old posts and threads) but upgraded my "newbie" status to "advanced member" by changing the number of posts. You wouldn't think the data would have been lost in a cosmetic change but it was.

One problem in considering a new film project is that it's hard to know the video quality. I doubt LOC has restored When Knighthood Was in Flower (if they even have it) so the video might not be as good as it was for Enchantment.

In any case, a lesson learned is to try to line up music BEFORE starting a Kickstarter campaign, Getting Don Sosin's music was a lucky stroke (he contacted me) and gave us the perfect guide in changing the fps.

Don't give up on TCM; they're just swamped with tech issues.