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List of extra content on the upcoming Masters of Cinema Blu ray set:

1080p presentations from new restorations
Multiple scores on selected shorts
Audio commentaries by Joseph McBride on The ‘High Sign’, One Week, Convict 13, The Playhouse, The Boat, and Cops
Newly discovered version of The Blacksmith containing four minutes of previously unseen footage
Alternate ending for Coney Island
Alternate ending for My Wife’s Relations
That’s Some Buster, a new exclusive video essay by critic and filmmaker David Cairns
An introduction by preservationist Serge Bromberg
The Art of Buster Keaton, actor Pierre Étaix discusses Keaton’s style
Audio recording of Keaton at a party in 1962
Life with Buster Keaton (1951, excerpt) - Keaton reenacts Roscoe Arbuckle's "Salomé dance", first performed in The Cook
PLUS: A 184-PAGE BOOK containing a roundtable discussion on Keaton by critics Brad Stevens, Jean-Pierre Coursodon, Dan Sallitt; a new essay and detailed notes on each film by Jeffrey Vance, author of Buster Keaton Remembered; a new essay by Serge Bromberg on the two versions of The Blacksmith and other discoveries; the words of Keaton; and archival imagery.


https://www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-BUSTER-1917-1923-Masters-Blu-ray/dp/B01DLOVNMK/

Etaix discussing Keaton would be worth the price of that set!

I know someone else asked this, but I don't think he got any answer. Will the BLU-RAY edition be ALL REGION? I mean, playable in Europe?

The Chaplin Mutual set is.

m.

Preview clip of ONE WEEK from Masters of Cinema:

I'm beginning to suspect that I will be returning the Kino set and ordering the other one if it doesn't include the same multiple music scores as on the European set. Kino has said almost nothing about the features of their set. Everything they have MoC appears to have... plus a full book instead of just a booklet.

The Kino set does not have the commentaries, the That's Some Buster video essay, the Etaix piece, nor the 1962 audio recording. I would assume that the scores are the same. My concern with the MoC set is that it's only 4 discs, especially with the extra content. I've had the Kino since Saturday and have only checked out some of the Arbuckle shorts so far.

bigshot wrote:I'm beginning to suspect that I will be returning the Kino set and ordering the other one if it doesn't include the same multiple music scores as on the European set. Kino has said almost nothing about the features of their set. Everything they have MoC appears to have... plus a full book instead of just a booklet.

Yes. I'll wait for all reviews to come in before making a purchase. The image is the most important factor, but if they're equal, go for the one with the most extras. MOC are also offering multiple soundtracks.

bigshot wrote:I'm beginning to suspect that I will be returning the Kino set and ordering the other one if it doesn't include the same multiple music scores as on the European set. Kino has said almost nothing about the features of their set. Everything they have MoC appears to have... plus a full book instead of just a booklet.

Just to clarify, the Kino Lorber edition includes the alternate version of THE BLACKSMITH (with four minutes of previously-unseen material), alternate endings of CONEY ISLAND and MY WIFE'S RELATIONS, the excerpt from "Life with Buster Keaton" (1951) with Keaton reenacting Arbuckle's Salomé dance from THE COOK, an introduction by Serge Bromberg (6 mins.), and a 24-page booklet with notes on all of the films (including cast & credits) and an essay by Jeffrey Vance.

The music accompaniment includes orchestral scores by Frank Bockius, Neil Brand, Timothy Brock, Günter Buchwald, Antonio Coppola, Stephen Horne, Robert Israel, The Mont Alto Motion Picture Orchestra, Dennis Scott, and Donald Sosin.

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Matt Barry
Kino Lorber, Inc.

tthacker wrote:My concern with the MoC set is that it's only 4 discs, especially with the extra content.

I really don't think that is a problem. I have blu-rays with nearly 4 hours of material on them and they look fine. The running time of the shorts is about 700 minutes. They could fit another two hours of supplements on with that without having bit rate issues. I've never seen a MoC disc yet that crunched the discs too much.

MattBarry wrote:Just to clarify, the Kino Lorber edition includes the alternate version of THE BLACKSMITH (with four minutes of previously-unseen material), alternate endings of CONEY ISLAND and MY WIFE'S RELATIONS, the excerpt from "Life with Buster Keaton" (1951) with Keaton reenacting Arbuckle's Salomé dance from THE COOK, an introduction by Serge Bromberg (6 mins.), and a 24-page booklet with notes on all of the films (including cast & credits) and an essay by Jeffrey Vance. The music accompaniment includes orchestral scores by Frank Bockius, Neil Brand, Timothy Brock, Günter Buchwald, Antonio Coppola, Stephen Horne, Robert Israel, The Mont Alto Motion Picture Orchestra, Dennis Scott, and Donald Sosin.
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Matt Barry
Kino Lorber, Inc.

All of those things are included in the Masters of Cinema edition too, except they have a few more supplements and a 184 page book, not just a booklet. But my main concern is the music scores. Do some of the films on the Kino version have multiple scores? I've gotten burned by the Chaplin Mutuals where the US version had just one score for each film, while the UK version had two. (Not to mention that some of the scores were out of sync to the picture.)

Scoundrel wrote:Preview clip of ONE WEEK from Masters of Cinema:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Mr10N_gu5o#t=25" target="_blank

Thank you for sharing the link!

If the book is 184 pages then some things were cut out that are in the original book for the DVD set. I'll stick with the kino set since it will include a new booklet and all the shorts must have some previous scores since only 21 new scores were recorded for this set and I have a feeling majority of the Arbuckle shorts were newly scored for this set. Someone posted on youtube The Cook, The Playhouse , Cops and The Scarecrow from the DVD set that was released last November but as Lobster films said they found new elements after that release so I'm not sure if further work was done on those titles.

Mike Gebert wrote:

That's $39.20 in US ... !!!!!

Not to encourage or discourage but simply to note: Amazon shows the US set at $42.99 so the difference between the two sets is pretty small.

It's even less by the time you get to checkout, since Amazon.co.uk removes the VAT charge for out-of-UK orders. It drops to around 23 pounds (plus 3 pounds shipping). For me, it comes to $50 Cdn in total, not too shabby. The Kino set is the same price at Amazon Canada, but with the handful of exclusive extras, it seems to make more sense to go Eureka/MoC.

jacksparrow900 wrote:If the book is 184 pages then some things were cut out that are in the original book for the DVD set.

Nope. The MoC 184 page book contains: a roundtable discussion on Keaton by critics Brad Stevens, Jean-Pierre Coursodon, Dan Sallitt; a new essay and detailed notes on each film by Jeffrey Vance, author of Buster Keaton Remembered; a new essay by Serge Bromberg on the two versions of The Blacksmith and other discoveries; the words of Keaton; and archival imagery.

The Kino booklet cuts everything out of the MoC book but the Jeffrey Vance essay and notes.

I am sure that the restoration of the films on the two sets will be identical, because both of them source Lobster Films. The differences will be in soundtracks and supplements. Those are the things that video labels control.

I have the French Arte 2015 DVD set of these new Lobster restorations. Five of the shorts have two scores, all the others have one score. The shorts with extra scores are Back Stage, Convict 13, The Blacksmith, The Frozen North and The Electric House. Don't know if the Kino or Masters of Cinema sets will have more. Most of the additional extras on the MOC set were on either the original 2006 MOC DVD set (big booklet, round-table discussion, commentaries, audio of party) or the original 2001 French Arte DVD set (Etaix documentary).

I think I may have the Etaix commentary on the Criterion Etaix box set

A piece on the new Keaton set, and the issue of "double dipping", from David Kalat at Movie Morlocks.

s.w.a.c. wrote:A piece on the new Keaton set, and the issue of "double dipping", from David Kalat at Movie Morlocks.

This is a great article. I think I'll pick up the new Keaton set after all.

In frustration, I just cancelled my order for the Kino set and ordered the Masters of Cinema set. I always know exactly what I'm getting with MoC, and quite frankly, after being bitten by Kino's Nosferatu, the problems in which were never addressed, and the musical score sync problems with the Phantom of the Opera, which required a double dip to SORT OF fix, I am extremely wary of choosing a Kino release over a UK one. It would have been nice to get a detailed description of what is on the Kino disc, particularly in regards to the musical scores included with each short, but that doesn't seem to be forthcoming. I don't care so much about supplements. I'm not a bit rate bean counter. But I want to know that the films themselves are presented the best possible way. MoC has said that several of their shorts include multiple scores. Kino has been silent on that. That makes my mind up for me.

These films have 2 scores on the Kino set:
-Convict 13
- The Electric House
-The Frozen North
-The Blacksmith (the recently discovered version)

Watched both versions of The Blacksmith last week, back-to-back. Although only 4 minutes were changed, it does make a difference. Interested to hear what others think of it.

On the Kino Lorber edition, the following films include an alternate score: BACKSTAGE, CONVICT 13, THE FROZEN NORTH, THE ELECTRIC HOUSE, and THE BLACKSMITH (Version B; this is the new, alternate version).

The music credits for the Kino Lorber edition, as listed in the booklet included with the set, are as follows:
OH DOCTOR, THE ROUGH HOUSE, HIS WEDDING NIGHT, GOOD NIGHT NURSE, MOONSHINE, FROZEN NORTH (piano) - music by Antonio Coppola

OUT WEST, THE BUTCHER BOY, BACK STAGE, CONVICT 13, THE BOAT, THE ELECTRIC HOUSE - music by Robert Israel, performed by the Robert Israel Orchestra

CONEY ISLAND, THE HIGH SIGN, THE BLACKSMITH (orchestra) - music by Donald Sosin.

HARD LUCK, ELECTRIC HOUSE, THE BALLOONATIC - music score composed by Stephen Horne

COPS - music composed & conduced by Timothy Brock, performed by the Ensemble "Die Reihe"

ONE WEEK - music composed & conducted by Timothy Brock, performed by Orchestra del Teatro Comunale di Bologna

THE COOK, THE PLAYHOUSE, THE LOVE NEST , THE BELLBOY (piano) - music composed by Neil Brand

THE HAUNTED HOUSE - music composed by Neil Brand

THE GARAGE, NEIGHBORS, THE SCARECROW, THE GOAT, THE PALEFACE, DAYDREAMS - music composed and performed by the Mont Alto Motion Picture Orchestra

THE HAYSEED, MY WIFE'S RELATIONS - music score compiled and performed by Sandra Wong (violin) and Rodney Sauer (piano).

CONVICT 13 (orchestra), THE FROZEN NORTH (orchestra) - music composed by Gunter Buchwald

THE BLACKSMITH (organ) - music composed and performed by Dennis Scott

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Matt Barry
Kino Lorber, Inc.

Is there any new footage that wasn't included the earlier 3 DVD set?

Michael Arlt wrote:Is there any new footage that wasn't included the earlier 3 DVD set?

These are new 2K restorations, produced by Lobster Films.

New footage in this edition includes the newly-rediscovered alternate version of THE BLACKSMITH with the four minutes of previously unseen material, as well as alternate endings of MY WIFE'S RELATIONS and CONEY ISLAND.

It also contains the restored version of HARD LUCK, which includes the "missing ending" with the final sight gag intact.

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Matt Barry
Kino Lorber, Inc.

Although not mentioned by Matt, the additional score for Back Stage on the 2015 French set is Neil Brand on piano. I expect it's the same on Kino. Since Masters of Cinema state additional scores on SELECTED shorts, I suppose their set will be identical, music-wise, to Arte and Kino. I'd be surprised (but delighted) if MOC included more alternate scores. Lobster Fims did mention that they had found even better material for a few shorts, too late for inclusion in the French DVD set (which I have), but scheduled for use in the Blu-Ray sets. I'd be very interested to have more details on this.
Whatever the case, these new restorations are well worth owning - some are fabulous - and they don't make the 2011 Kino set redundant. I'm hanging on to my 2011 set for all the wonderful extras, the different scores and a couple of shorts where I actually prefer the 2011 versions.

From Kalat's article in a section about the almost immediate obsolescence of Image's Dr Mabuse the Gambler DVD back in 1999:

There was a highly vocal minority of consumers who advocated a “boycott” of the Image disc to “force” the company to reissue the thing in its complete form. This was a decidedly self-destructive stance to take. Far from “forcing” Image to discard the first pressing and “upgrade” it with the additional footage, the result was to eventually force Image to abandon silent films altogether. The consumers most invested in high-quality silent films on home video helped destroy one of the principal channels by which silent films were released on home video.

Where was this? I have no recollection of a boycott movement related to Mabuse (which was a wonderful release at the time that I gave a glowing review to back at digitallyobsessed, I might add). I was on some silent film usenet groups back in the day but I don't pretend to have belonged to or known of all of them. Can someone fill me in on this?

Yeah, new one on me, and I just looked at alt.movies.silent and in an admittedly brief search, saw nothing like that. Maybe at Home Theater Forum or somewhere like that? I don't know.

Likewise, I don't recall anybody really complaining about double dipping here (other than in reference to an Amazon complaint about same)-- there's only debate between different new versions in this thread.

I honestly do not know where the complaining he's talking about took place, but I guess it's a big internet. The way I look at the new Keaton set is, if it was 1974 and a new version of The Blacksmith came from Blackhawk, it would surely be $50, or at least the equivalent in 1974 dollars, so...

I'm not one to believe that settling for second best will lead to excellence. I don't think there is anything wrong with demanding that a video release at the very least be as complete as possible and have the sound in sync with a sympathetic score. That isn't a whole lot to ask.

The problem is, the video companies announce a release and send out their master for replication without doing due diligence to make sure it is correct. If they're sending mastering out of house, they should get a check disc and go over it with a fine tooth comb before putting it up for sale. They shouldn't depend on customer complaints to do their quality control for them. (A few video companies seem to do that.)

Except that's not at all what the case was with Dr. Mabuse:

Following these degenerative international releases of the twenties, and a resultant array of VHS and DVD transfers in the eighties and nineties, a 229-minute English version was reconstructed by David Shepard for the Image Entertainment distributor in 2001,[24] which seemed definitive prior to Transit Film's restoration released in 2004, bringing 270 minutes together in an 'authorized' edition.

http://aphasic-letters.com/mabuse/essay.html" target="_blank" target="_blank

In other words, it may not have been very long compared to other things, but for three years, the Image one was first best. I'm all for holding off when you know something is in the works— I wouldn't go buying the Australian Napoleon DVD right now— but at some point, things can wait longer than you can.

Sympathetic scores, of course, are another matter, entirely in the ear of the beholder.

As I understand things (and I might be wrong) Kino's MABUSE has about three and a half minutes of footage in part 1 that my version does not have. The rest of the difference in running time is achieved by a slower transfer speed.

David Shepard

Thanks for the clarification.