Colleen Moore's NAUGHTY BUT NICE (1927)

[drednm]

Ok, for Her Wild Oat, the Academy has a restored print and Warner’s holds the copyright. This print can be shown theatrically, which provides a very good opportunity. But, in terms of a home video release, the number one impediment then is lack of a score. Warner’s has no funding to produce a score. And, it appears that the price for a score is well above that which we can accomplish through crowdfunding.

So, the question is who would fund a score for a film which Warner’s owns? TCM was mentioned above. I did not even know that TCM produced scores for silent films. Is that at all likely in this case? Aside from TCM, would any other organization ever fund such a project? Or, in terms of a home video release of Her Wild Oat, are we at a permanent stalemate?

While on the subject, I honestly have no idea how much a score that would be produced for a WB release costs, but I am curious. Does anyone know how much (ballpark) such a score would normally run?

Matthew

TCM used to commission scores thru its "young" composer contest. Not sure what they'd done since that ended many years ago....

A score does not need to be an orchestral affair. I mean really, if the cost of a score is all that stands in the way of a DVD release (I'm sure there are other considerations), then a good piano score can be had for well under 1K. Corporate impediments probably preclude WAC from launching a crowdfunding campaign and they do not work with third parties (who could launch one). Basically, they get in their own way. We ain't gonna change corporate culture.

[vitaphone]

Good summary Michael. TCM, which is also owned by Warners as is Warner Archive, has funded a FEW silent scored through contests. Results have been wildly variable and few are authentic. With the latest corporate bean counting, TCM too has zero funding to score silents. To PROPERLY (not just piano) score a silent feature, cost would start at $10K (please, no "expert" out there to say they can do it with orchestra for way less).

After Colleen Moore's SYNTHETIC SIN was found and restored, as it had only the final reel's Vitaphone soundtrack, we investigated getting the restoration of it authentically scored with WB. We have the original music cue sheets used on the Vitaphone score, in order. Most tunes are copyright. The original used a 25 piece orchestra.. To do it right, the only person considered (rightly) to do this was Vince Giordano. Once rights, scoring, recording, sound effects, musician costs etc. were figured it was around $25K. If a well heeled funder did this through UCLA, it would be fully deductible. I assume the Moore fan who always complains on Nitrateville won't be underwriting this.

I agree the likelihood of coming up with funding to PROPERLY score this or other silents via crowdfunding is slim.

[WaverBoy]

I'd donate $100 to that project and not even ask for a copy of the finished DVD. So put me down for $125.

[WaverBoy]

As for PROPERLY scoring NAUGHTY BUT NICE, I'm betting Ben Model could provide a great score for less than $10K. Not orchestral, but...so? There are silent films out on WAC with ancient needle-drop scores (HE WHO GETS SLAPPED, anyone?), and needless to say a non-orchestral Ben Model score would be waaaaaaaaaaay better than that.

[Rodney]

Good summary Michael. TCM, which is also owned by Warners as is Warner Archive, has funded a FEW silent scored through contests. Results have been wildly variable and few are authentic. With the latest corporate bean counting, TCM too has zero funding to score silents. To PROPERLY (not just piano) score a silent feature, cost would start at $10K (please, no "expert" out there to say they can do it with orchestra for way less).

I agree the likelihood of coming up with funding to PROPERLY score this or other silents via crowdfunding is slim.

I don't think Mont Alto has ever charged as much as $10,000 for any score, even Les Vampires, which was over six hours of music. That includes scoring, performing, and recording. Vince Giordano has an excellent ensemble, the best in the business, but they're used to the budgets you get for recording shows like Boardwalk Empire. And you can't just record a 25-piece band in your home studio, so it gets expensive fast.

When recording scores for films like The Blot or Timothy's Quest or The Flying Ace, I recognize that Mont Alto is in a different market, and that's fine.

So, yes, I can "do it with an orchestra for way less." Then again, you may not consider Mont Alto scores "proper" orchestral scores, which is fair.

Also, TCM funds silent scores all the time, by paying third parties (Kino, Laughsmith, Flicker Alley, Lobster, etc.) to license their films with the scores for airing on the channel. I've been told occasionally by producers that being asked to score certain projects is contingent on TCM being interested in airing it, to help cover the cost.

[oldposterho]

I imagine the studios are required to use union musicians and living wages do up the cost considerably.

[Rodney]

I imagine the studios are required to use union musicians and living wages do up the cost considerably.

That's not the issue here. Several members of Mont Alto are in the local union, and we make a professional wage on most (if not quite all) of our projects. The Denver musicians union is more flexible than in New York, but we're all professional musicians.

Our savings come mostly from having my own home studio (which would be unaffordable in NYC), so that I can do all of the audio engineering myself, and having excellent players and sight readers who have learned how to perform this repertoire, and can record a film score in just a couple of sessions with minimal rehearsal.

Having a huge library of photoplay music at my disposal, and twenty years of practice compiling film scores from it, also make the process pretty efficient.

[BenModel]

Another cost to figure in is the production of a new scan of the archival 35mm material, unless I'm mistaken.

Ben

[Harlett O'Dowd]

Things may have changed over time, but my understanding is that WB/TCM historically shies away from scoring ANY silent that was released with a pre-recorded track. Thanks to the fine work Ron Hutchinson and others have found in tracking down discs, I guess it makes sense for the Turner folks to wait and hope for the originals to show up and in the meanwhile, focus on other projects.

And yes, TCM has officially retired the young composer program, so that will never come back into the mix.

One thing I wish TCM would consider bringing back is taping organ scores during screenings. They did a nice job with Von's MERRY WIDOW and I believe there's a Garbo title (LOVE?) which shows up from time to time. I would think that would a viable way for the company to score their own films that are unlikely to go the route of Criterion and the other out-of-house distributors.

And if they record during their own TCM Fest, that would add to the company branding AND offer a nice souvenir for attendees and enticement for others to give the festivals and cruises a try.

[rudyfan]

One thing I wish TCM would consider bringing back is taping organ scores during screenings. They did a nice job with Von's MERRY WIDOW and I believe there's a Garbo title (LOVE?) which shows up from time to time. I would think that would a viable way for the company to score their own films that are unlikely to go the route of Criterion and the other out-of-house distributors.

And if they record during their own TCM Fest, that would add to the company branding AND offer a nice souvenir for attendees and enticement for others to give the festivals and cruises a try.

This is truth. My only comment re the Merry Widow is the audience laughter. Unfortunately, I guess that cannot be edited out.

[Rodney]

And if they record during their own TCM Fest, that would add to the company branding AND offer a nice souvenir for attendees and enticement for others to give the festivals and cruises a try.

I've often thought it would be fun to have TCM run a film with an orchestra playing the score live somewhere in real-time. For instance, perhaps at a TCM festival screening, they'd do a live broadcast, much like the Metropolitan Opera broadcasts performances to movie theaters. It would give those watching at home a taste of what it's like to see silent films as a live performance medium.

[drednm]

And if they record during their own TCM Fest, that would add to the company branding AND offer a nice souvenir for attendees and enticement for others to give the festivals and cruises a try.

I've often thought it would be fun to have TCM run a film with an orchestra playing the score live somewhere in real-time. For instance, perhaps at a TCM festival screening, they'd do a live broadcast, much like the Metropolitan Opera broadcasts performances to movie theaters. It would give those watching at home a taste of what it's like to see silent films as a live performance medium.

Interesting idea.....

[WaverBoy]

I don’t suppose there’s any new news on a possible video release of NAUGHTY BUT NICE, HER WILD OAT, or SYNTHETIC SIN? Or, for that matter:

LILAC TIME
TWINKLETOES
THE PERFECT FLAPPER
IRENE
ELLA CINDERS
ORCHIDS AND ERMINE
OH, KAY!

Also, Wikipedia still lists NAUGHTY BUT NICE as missing, presumed lost.

[mwalls]

I don’t suppose there’s any new news on a possible video release of NAUGHTY BUT NICE, HER WILD OAT, or SYNTHETIC SIN? Or, for that matter:

LILAC TIME
TWINKLETOES
THE PERFECT FLAPPER
IRENE
ELLA CINDERS
ORCHIDS AND ERMINE
OH, KAY!

Also, Wikipedia still lists NAUGHTY BUT NICE as missing, presumed lost.

The last I heard, NAUGHTY BUT NICE was on the radar to be restored but there were films in the queue in front of it. My understanding is that a complete print exists in an archive in Spain.

There is a decent circulating copy of LILAC TIME but it is not restored. The Library of Congress for one has a complete print.

I believe SYNTHETIC SIN is restored but there are some Vitaphone disks missing.

HER WILD OAT is fully restored but no score. The print is available for loan to theaters where it can be coupled with live music. I am not aware of any plans to create a score to allow it to be released on DVD.

Matthew

[silentfilm]

But good news, THE SKY PILOT has just been restored by the Library of Congress and is screening in Berlin later this month.

[Brooksie]

Synthetic Sin screened at Cinecon in 2015. I believe it was a restoration, but I don't have the notes on hand to confirm. Given that there's a pretty cringeworthy blackface sequence, I wouldn't rate the chances of an official release highly (and to be honest, it's not that great a film. Why Be Good is much better).

[mwalls]

Synthetic Sin screened at Cinecon in 2015. I believe it was a restoration, but I don't have the notes on hand to confirm. Given that there's a pretty cringeworthy blackface sequence, I wouldn't rate the chances of an official release highly (and to be honest, it's not that great a film. Why Be Good is much better).

I lobbied for a few Silent titles to be shown at a local theater. Synthetic Sin was not chosen specifically because of the blackface scene.

Matthew