NitrateVille.com

I am new here, so I am not sure if this topic was ever discussed. But a curiosity that few people have considered is how sound was originally recorded for Vitaphone. In the early talkie parody, SINGIN' IN THE RAIN, it is explained to LENA LAMONT that "A man records it on a big record in wax." This does not seem logical or practical knowing how films were and are made. There are several takes, as was demonstrated in this film, which was not intended to be entirely accurate.

Listening to some early Hal Roach comedies that were released in Sound-On-Disc, there seems to be a audible splice with each shot cut. The thought of making master tracks on disc seems entirely too impractical, awkward and wasteful on many; accounts. Second, it is impossible to edit picture and sound in interlock using discs in this manner, as well as assemble the various takes into a completed film. Therefore it seems that the original recordings would have been on film with their release form being made as transfers from edited optical soundtracks to discs.

Since Western Electric developed the Sound-On-Disc system, and also acquired the Sound-On-Film process through the partnership of Sponable, Case, and Fox, this seems most likely. It also makes as much sense in the case of films released in both sound-on-disc and sound-on-film. Original optical recordings would have been lost, destroyed, or deteriorated by this point in time. But we have heard that previously lost tracks to early talkies have been reunited using the Vitaphone disc(s) that were found.

So with respect to the method of recording, is there any other information that supports my suspicions?

I remember reading somewhere (perhaps in Scott Eyman's THE SPEED OF SOUND) that in the very early days of disc recording, a "master disc" was made by re-recording and mixing the audio, sound effects and music from other separate discs, and in real time. If this is so, I agree it would have been a difficult, cumbersome time-consuming task, and one that probably resulted in not totally accurate sound synchronization or good quality audio.

And I also recall reading somewhere that in the early 1930's, the Hal Roach Studio had a contraption for music underscoring that resembled a jukebox, with various rolls of sound-on-film tracks in a ferris-wheel sort of configuration. As a particular theme was needed, they just pulled that particular roll from the device and re-recorded onto the master track. Apparently those complete individual tracks have long since been lost, destroyed or disintegrated (what a pleasure they would have been to listen to!) But you can get a fair idea of what they sounded like from the Beau Hunks orchestra recreations, which were transcribed from the Roach shorts themselves. SETH

I gained a little insight into this area by a long conversation I had with Hal Roach Supervising Editor Richard Currier in 1980. He stated that during shooting the sound was fed to both an Optical Sound recorder and a Wax Disc recorder (for playback and/or protection if the film recorder malfunctioned). The sound was indeed cut on film and then dubbed back to Disc for release to theaters not equipped for sound-on-film. Other studios did it differently, I've heard. Currier seemed to be quite proud to be an early adopter of double-system sound film editing.
Regards,
- Martin

There's a demonstration film of the Vitaphone process from 1926 (the one featuring Witt & Berg) in which the host takes viewers into the control room and demonstrates that the soundtrack was indeed recorded on wax blanks--just like phonograph records of the time, but larger and at 33 1/3 rpm.

In this clip from Showgirl in Hollywood, the cutting turntables are clearly visible at 3:10--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haZZD--VYM0



I can't comment specifically about how Vitaphone films were edited, but more information about wax blanks is available at
http://www.normanfield.com/78manufacture.htm
(This deals with commercial 78s but the principles are the same; there just wouldn't be a need for as many metal copies after the original matrix since fewer Vitaphone discs would need to be pressed.)

-HA

The early Vitaphone shorts were also shot with two or more cameras while the sound was recorded live on disk, and there was theoretically no need to edit the sound for what was essentially the equivalent of recording a live performance. The film could be edited in sync to a single soundtrack, cutting between different camera angles, with any cutaways or parallel editing done using MOS shots and no need to alter the audio.

I'm not sure how much or how long audio editing was done disk-to-disk, but it was possible. Some early talkies even had wall-to-wall background music under the live-recorded dialogue.

Christopher Jacobs wrote:The early Vitaphone shorts were also shot with two or more cameras while the sound was recorded live on disk, and there was theoretically no need to edit the sound for what was essentially the equivalent of recording a live performance. The film could be edited in sync to a single soundtrack, cutting between different camera angles, with any cutaways or parallel editing done using MOS shots and no need to alter the audio.

I'm not sure how much or how long audio editing was done disk-to-disk, but it was possible. Some early talkies even had wall-to-wall background music under the live-recorded dialogue.

It would be interesting to have a direct reference to those early talkies with background music recorded with the performance. This would have required multiple microphones and a live mix for the recording. If this were the case, they would have been limited on their mike channels since most early talkies sound as if they were recorded with one mike.
It was only a few years later when multiple channel recording became available that sections of the orchestra could be miked for their own levels for a more balanced recording.

It is encouraging that my logic in the matters coincides with the statement by Richard Currier. My curiosity was whether anyone had given thought to this. One of the problems with the Vitaphone recording process was that the equipment was not portable. So a film had to be confined to an indoor studio environment. Location shooting was prohibitive under these conditions. Interestingly, the early OUR GANG talkie, RAILROADIN' was shot entirely on location. It was released in Sound-on-disc format, and for decades the track was considered lost until the last few years when it was reunited with the film.

I have seen production stills showing a platform that was constructed to hang on the side of the locomotive in order to get Medium and Close-up shots while the train was moving. Seeing the film, it's apparent that the sound was shot live using this rigging. This is something that simply could not have been done using a direct to disc recording system for the obvious reasons. It is entirely possible that this was shot using a single system sound-on-film method since the sound for each shot butts with each cut instead of overlapping, which is possible using a double system method. What this proves is that the film had to have been originally recorded Sound-on-Film.

Ray,
I don't think I'd rule out Roach's ability to shoot on location with double system sound (including using a recording lathe for disc). Have you seen the size of the Victor sound truck that was in some of the 1929 publicity photos? Pretty big. Since they were releasing both silent and sound-on-disc versions, I'd assume they would have favored the full silent aperture (at least in the first year or so). In fact, I'm not sure that the first few Roach sound films even were released with optical tracks on the prints themselves until later re-releases.

The sound film recorder I was referring to would be a separate unit yielding a separate sound negative. Since I haven't worked with the actual materials, I can't absolutely rule out the idea that some of the material was acquired using single system equipment. When talking with Mr. Currier, I did however get the idea that he was working with double-system material. I'd be interested to hear from anybody that has actually handled the original elements in question. Having been an editor myself, I find it to be an interesting topic.

Regards,
Martin

martinola wrote:Ray,
I don't think I'd rule out Roach's ability to shoot on location with double system sound (including using a recording lathe for disc). Have you seen the size of the Victor sound truck that was in some of the 1929 publicity photos? Pretty big. Since they were releasing both silent and sound-on-disc versions, I'd assume they would have favored the full silent aperture (at least in the first year or so). In fact, I'm not sure that the first few Roach sound films even were released with optical tracks on the prints themselves until later re-releases.

The sound film recorder I was referring to would be a separate unit yielding a separate sound negative. Since I haven't worked with the actual materials, I can't absolutely rule out the idea that some of the material was acquired using single system equipment. When talking with Mr. Currier, I did however get the idea that he was working with double-system material. I'd be interested to hear from anybody that has actually handled the original elements in question. Having been an editor myself, I find it to be an interesting topic.

Regards,
Martin

Yes, I've seen a picture of the sound truck. It was mostly an electrical generator, I believe, with a mixing board inside. It is entirely possible that the truck could have run along with the train, allowing enough slack in the umbilical connections to interlock with the camera. Being an Editor, I am sure that you know that the reference to "double system" refers to separate picture and track negatives being exposed simultaneously as opposed to "single system" being exposed directly on the picture negative as was the case of early sound newsreels and early deForest Phonofilms, which later used a double system of this sort. For those not as familiar, we need to make clear that the idea is that both methods of sound-on-disc and sound-on-film were employed simultaneously as indicated above. But the use of the term "double system sound" in this case is a bit misleading for the uninitiated.

martinola wrote: Having been an editor myself, I find it to be an interesting topic.
Regards, Martin

Having been a film editor myself for many years, I also find this topic extremely fascinating. I wish a film or sound editor working during the transition to sound (e.g. MGM's Margaret Booth) had written an autobiography with detailed info about the actual mechanics of editing at that time.

I have no real evidence, but I suspect many early sound films were shot multi-camera with optical sound and sound-on-disc (both existed at least from the mid-20's). The first method would have enabled easier editing (and a backup), whilst the latter provided immediate playback to check the sound.

I can remember editing 16mm news footage in the 60's shot with optical sound, and using blooping tape for unwanted clicks and plops. In some cases the optical soundtrack was transferred to 16mm magnetic film for double-system editing. I keep thinking an arrangement like this could have been used during the transition to sound, although in documentaries I've only seen the large disc-cutting turntables being used.

I think there is quite a significative technology difference from the early talkies, like 1929, to the standart talkies from 30's.

If we take the first LAurel and Hardie talkies (early talkies), the sound edition it's very poor, and almost no sound effect, and the few ones maybe was created during the shooting of the voices, requiring not much edition.

I heard about vitaphone disks, comments that the sound quality of the disks was very good for the era. But many early sounds sounds very noise and very "noze sound".

Hey Ray -
After checking out Railroadin, I do believe that your original point is correct as regards shooting optical sound. I'd be pretty amazed myself if they bothered to try to cut an additional disc master for those shots. Pretty impressive for an early talkie!

BTW- thanks for the needed explanation of the term "double system". I'll try to watch the "jargon".

Best Regards,
Martin

Here's proof that indeed they shot on optical for RAILROADIN' (and the other early Roach talkies). This is the Victor soundtrack ledger sheet, showing them making disks from each scene's optical track. Cumbersome but confirmed.

As I understand it (from an interview with the recording engineer who's career spanned from "Don Juan" to "My Fair Lady") the way Vitaphone films were mixed was that the rerecording mixer's desk had a series of switches or pushbuttons, one by each pot (fader now). These controlled multiple turntables in the dubbing room with each cued up to it's start mark. Somehow (maybe signalled by a series of punches and streamers) the mixer started each turntable as needed. Technicians in the machine room prepared and cued up discs in advance.

If I can find that article I'll post it.

Think of that career span.... I wish I could say I had a career like that! Or to have been one of Douglas Shearer's assistants at MGM.

Alas..... never see those days again.

Here is a shot of the Vitaphone disk dubbing bank in the Brooklyn studios, late 1929.....

The earliest Vitaphone sound-on-disc short subjects were all filmed and recorded in real time. Each reel was one continuous take, often from 3 angles (3 cameras) running at once, all synced together, from which the editor could choose which viewpoint to cut into and out of at any given point. If a production called for the action to take place between two different sets, they were set up side-by-side and it was all one continuous take by multiple cameras. Even the Jazz singer (the first feature to have dialog scenes), the Dialog and singing scenes were on separate reels, that had their own corresponding discs.

I read somewhere that by 1930 Warner was recording on optical track exclusively, editing, mixing, then dubbing to disc for release to theaters that required disc for playback.

By 1927-28 they most certainly did mix from different microphones. Remember this was before the invention of the traveling boom for microphones, therefore the microphones were concealed in the set, and had to be brought up or down, depending on where the actors were standing in the long takes required at that time. Also the off-screen orchestra in musical numbers had to have its separate microphone.

I'm convinced, that IN SOME CASES, by 1929 the musical numbers were pre-recorded and the performers pantomimed to playback, as is the case later, and today.

Indeed, in the very early days of sound, the films were recorded and mixed on disc.

What many people don't realize is that Warner Brothers, seeing a need for editing sound, developed a system for editing sound from disc to disc - it involved a set of turntables with multiple arms and a counter that kept track of each revolution of each disc.

Within a short period, Warners gave up on originating sound on disc and started recording on film, then dubbing finished soundtracks to Vitaphone discs for theaters equipped with the system.

Warners disc dubbing system would have been completely forgotten if it hadn't been for World War II.

Armed Forces Radio needed a way to edit domestic US radio programs for broadcast to troops overseas. The shows were recorded on 16" lacquers at 33 1/3 rpm, similar to Vitaphone discs. Someone connected with the networks or AFRS remembered the old Vitaphone system and that's what they used to edit AFRS programs up into the early 1950s when tape came along.

AFRS technicians were very skilled using this editing method. Some edits were simple, replacing or deleting commercials or show openings and closings that mentioned sponsors or substituting musical numbers or sketches in shows that had references to current events. But they would also use it to delete individual lines or jokes in some cases from shows. They would also do original programming, like "Jubilee" or "Command Performance", and many of those were edited from segments recorded at different times to accommodate scheduling talent.

Bing Crosby had already worked extensively on AFRS and government programming that used disc to disc editing. I've got one disc in my collection of a Treasury Department show, "Guest Star", that I believe is the first instance of the use of a "laugh track". Bing and Bob Hope very obviously recorded the show without an audience and the laughs and applause are dubbed in. The show was recorded a couple of months before Jack Mullin approached Bing with tape machines Mullin had brought from Germany. It was probably a disc to disc edit job done by someone that worked on AFRS shows.

http://randsesotericotr.podbean.com/201 ... ar-pgm-12/" target="_blank

Bing Crosby was impressed enough with the work of AFRS that he tried to talk NBC into letting him record and edit his show - he wanted to be able to catch guest stars as they came into town and have a more "loose" recording session where they could re-do a song if it wasn't working right. NBC balked because they had a strong policy of live programming and they were doubtful about the sound quality. With tape, Bing was able to convince ABC to run with his idea.

Editing on film wouldn't have been practical at AFRS at the time. The Hollywood studios and the military were going through a lot of film stock. Sixteen inch lacquers were already standard in the broadcast industry for recording programs and distributing syndicated shows, so they stuck with that.

Typically, they would have discs of a show and edit from the discs to another lacquer master they would press on vinyl 16" discs for distribution to AFRS stations around the world and to military hospitals. Today, many of the "master" discs of shows from the networks are gone and the edited AFRS versions are all that survive.