The silent/talkie transition as an extinction event

[Frederica]

Manner, or understanding the form, or star quality, or something like that, may be the biggest issue, although age, salaries, etc. were a part of it. There is some quality the best early talkie actors had that was missing with many silent stars, or maybe they came to the new medium without the weight of fan expectations the older silent stars carried with them. Or maybe it's just that they fit in with the new zeitgeist better. It's a mystery to me. I just go with it.

That sounds like a great description of Clark Gable, which makes it all the more intriguing that John Gilbert was supposedly the original choice for Gable's role in Red Dust (1932). I just can't imagine it, and I guess Victor Fleming couldn't either. An intriguing 'what if,' though.

Clark Gable was the actor I had in mind, I was thinking specifically of The Finger Points (1931), which nominally starred Richard Barthelmess. Gable had a small role in it, before he became "Clark Gable," if you catch my drift. I like Barthelmess and am not all that fond of Gable, but Gable blew Barthelmess right off the screen.

Despite the fact that I can't put a finger on it, or describe it any better than I have, I think that's probably what sunk John Gilbert--more than any reported problems with Mayer or his drinking. I cannot imagine him in Gable's role in Red Dust, either. That's says more about how I react to movie stars than it does anything about Gilbert's abilities, but then I'm the deciding factor, ain't I? Which, btw, Ty Burr discusses this at length in Gods Like Us, On Movie Stardom and Modern Fame, two thumbs up, I recommends it.

[alistairw]

Some great lists here which have introduced me to numerous actors I was not aware of. But in my original post I omitted probably the most intriguing feature of an extinction event, the purely transitional species. In this analogy that would mean performers who objectively (or arguably) had no real place in movies, and indeed had no long term future in them, but who for some reason or another flourished in the first chaotic years of the transition. With my limited knowledge of the period Alice White springs to mind (perhaps unfairly) but there might have been better examples?

[Frederica]

Some great lists here which have introduced me to numerous actors I was not aware of. But in my original post I omitted probably the most intriguing feature of an extinction event, the purely transitional species. In this analogy that would mean performers who objectively (or arguably) had no real place in movies, and indeed had no long term future in them, but who for some reason or another flourished in the first chaotic years of the transition. With my limited knowledge of the period Alice White springs to mind (perhaps unfairly) but there might have been better examples?

Don't know if Kay Francis fits your criteria. Her career certainly flourished in the immediate transitional years, but had begun to falter by 1935 or so.

[alistairw]

I haven't seen many Kay Francis films but in those I have her performances seemed assured. I was thinking more of performers who to us ( but of course our views may not reflect the mores of the period) seem out of their depth or, to put it bluntly, a bit of a joke.

[Brooksie]

Some great lists here which have introduced me to numerous actors I was not aware of. But in my original post I omitted probably the most intriguing feature of an extinction event, the purely transitional species. In this analogy that would mean performers who objectively (or arguably) had no real place in movies, and indeed had no long term future in them, but who for some reason or another flourished in the first chaotic years of the transition. With my limited knowledge of the period Alice White springs to mind (perhaps unfairly) but there might have been better examples?

Catherine Dale Owen is a perfect example of what you're saying, or any of the actors they rushed to Hollywood direct from legitimate theatre, and were rushed straight back there when they didn't prove very appealing as screen actors. Vivienne Segal is arguably another. Helen Twelvetrees would have been one if she hadn't have been picked up by Pathe-RKO - Fox hired her with great fanfare in 1929, but dropped her less than a year later.

Part of the problem was that people resented the idea that the studios were imposing this raft of new stars upon them and demanding that they love them. There are plenty of 'backlash' articles in fan magazines at the time; people saying 'The studios better understand that WE make the stars, not them.'

[entredeuxguerres]

Don't know if Kay Francis fits your criteria. Her career certainly flourished in the immediate transitional years, but had begun to falter by 1935 or so.

Not "by 1935," but in the years thereafter friction with Warner's mounted steadily, forcing her to fight harder for desirable parts, culminating in her lawsuit. Any suggestion that her success (highest paid Warner's actress) was the result of the "chaos" of the transition to sound is RIDICULOUS!

[entredeuxguerres]

I haven't seen many Kay Francis films but in those I have her performances seemed assured.

You're damn right they are! In Gentlemen of the Press, 1929, she's SO assured one could easily believe it was her twientieth picture, not her first.

[drednm]

Kay Francis was not in silent films so wasn't involved in the "chaos" of transitioning. She also did not begin to "fade" at the box office by 1935, not until Warners purposely (shades of LB Mayer!) assigned her to crap films because they couldn't break her contract. She sailed through these for years, maintaining popularity, much to the chagrin of Warners. Of course, eventually the bad films took their toll, especially as the likes of Bette Davis rose up from the "chaos" of her early talkies.....

[alistairw]

Catherine Dale Owen, who I had completely forgotten about, is exactly the type I had in mind. She is the mannequin who has to listen to John Gilbert twittering I love you, I love you etc. in His Glorious Night.

[Frederica]

I haven't seen many Kay Francis films but in those I have her performances seemed assured. I was thinking more of performers who to us ( but of course our views may not reflect the mores of the period) seem out of their depth or, to put it bluntly, a bit of a joke.

Oh, I get you. No, then she doesn't.

[FrankFay]

Kay Francis was not in silent films so wasn't involved in the "chaos" of transitioning. .

It would only be a technicality, but I think Kay Francis has been spotted in a small part in a silent.

[Frederica]

Kay Francis was not in silent films so wasn't involved in the "chaos" of transitioning. .

It would only be a technicality, but I think Kay Francis has been spotted in a small part in a silent.

There does seem to be a parallel type of transitional talkie star, from the period of about 1929-1933/34 or so, of which Kay Francis would be a good example. Right about the time that each studio's product solidified into a distinct commodity, the stars who had longer careers, throughout the late 30s/early 40s, seem to emerge from the pack with firmly established images suited to the studio's productions. People like Gable, or Harlow, or Bette Davis, who replaced Francis as Warner's it-girl.

[entredeuxguerres]

There does seem to be a parallel type of transitional talkie star, from the period of about 1929-1933/34 or so, of which Kay Francis would be a good example. Right about the time that each studio's product solidified into a distinct commodity, the stars who had longer careers, throughout the late 30s/early 40s, seem to emerge from the pack with firmly established images suited to the studio's productions. People like Gable, or Harlow, or Bette Davis, who replaced Francis as Warner's it-girl.

Harping yet again on your Kay Francis theory? She's a "good example" only of the fate of those who refuse to buckle under to the studio system, as Ed already explained; a good example also of the "unintended consequences" of winning too lucrative a contract. Davis replaced her as Warner's most important asset, but hardly as their "It-girl"...unless you can imagine Bette playing Spot White.

[EUGENE75]

Dorothy Dwan was another one who made only one or two talking pictures.Virginia Pearson only did one or two talking pictures too.Virginia pearson had prior stage success too but Hollywood tossed her aside when talkis came in.Priscilla Bonner retired to marry.Her husband wanted her to give up her career.

[boblipton]

There have been other extinction events in the history of film, but the rapidity of the sound revolution certainly makes it striking. Others would include the rise of film grammar, which took about fifteen years -- G.A. Smith began it about 1898 and with the retirement of Melies and de Chomon, it was over; the rise of panchromatic film; the color revolution; and the destruction of the studio system from a myriad legal and cultural causes.

Bob

[Harlett O'Dowd]

There does seem to be a parallel type of transitional talkie star, from the period of about 1929-1933/34 or so, of which Kay Francis would be a good example. Right about the time that each studio's product solidified into a distinct commodity, the stars who had longer careers, throughout the late 30s/early 40s, seem to emerge from the pack with firmly established images suited to the studio's productions. People like Gable, or Harlow, or Bette Davis, who replaced Francis as Warner's it-girl.

Harping yet again on your Kay Francis theory? She's a "good example" only of the fate of those who refuse to buckle under to the studio system, as Ed already explained; a good example also of the "unintended consequences" of winning too lucrative a contract. Davis replaced her as Warner's most important asset, but hardly as their "It-girl"...unless you can imagine Bette playing Spot White.

With Ms. Fwancis, I think the primary factor (or the primary reason WB chose to "break" her) was that by 1935 she was nearing her sell-by date. Even today, most stars burn brightly for 5-7 years or so. This is particularly true for leading women, who, sadly, our culture force to become totally dependent on their looks. At 30, Ms. Fwancis, while still attractive, was no longer the bright-new-thing. I also think she was one of those actors who seemed less interesting after the Code came in.

Very few people manage to re-invent themselves often enough to forge a 30-40-50 year career as an above-the-title star, which makes the few exceptions, like Crawford, all the more extraordinary.

To bring this back to the original topic, it might be just as interesting to look at the coming of the Code as an "extinction event" as it was around this time that a lot of actors who survived the transition (or, like, Fwancis, came in at the very dawn of sound) chose to leave or, in a few instances, were pushed out of the studios.

And might this be cyclical? I found it interesting that, for different reasons, Shearer, Garbo and Crawford all left MGM during the 1942-43 season or thereabouts. Apart from the men who left to serve and didn't return to film (Leslie Howard) are there others who appear to have faded away during the war years? Those NOT blacklisted who left 1948-50? And then, of course, the massive reduction of studio contracts in 1954-55.

And so on?

[boblipton]

Well, you're caught with the cycle of a screen persona and technological (including storytelling techniques). A good actor who could cycle from one persona to the next (Lewis Stone, Walter Pidgeon, Joan Crawford) could survive and reestablish herself with the connivance of a studio which had already invested a lot of money in the "brand".... like moving Marlborough from a woman's brand of cigarettes to a men's brand with an ad campaign. That, however, depends on the cost of maintenance being reasonable, meaning that salary is not outrageous and you don't have to pay off newspapers and judges to cover up bad publicity.

And that's why the end of the studios was another extinction event. When every deal is a one-time deal with an ill-defined "good will" component, then the studios -- or whatever you want to call them -- have no investment. It's up to the actors themselves to manage their own careers. Some, like Michael Douglas, are very canny. But the youngsters in particular, are just fresh meat for scandals and bad behavior that will cause their careers to implode.

Bob

[JFK]

In palaeontology terms an extinction event is basically defined by
(1)the immediate or near immediate disappearance of numerous dominant species
(2)the superficial survival of other dominant species but against a backdrop of steady, inevitable decline
(3)the ultimate prevalence of lesser, more versatile species and totally new ones.

STAGE/RADIO Corollary
Network radio (along with talkies and the depression) killed vaudeville, live stage productions, and the careers of comics who worked in them.
(1) Most of the dominant comics who couldn't adapt, or who lacked believable/likable characterizatons retired, or survived only in night clubs - and even the biggest of them - e.g. Ed Wynn - saw their radio/film careers wither until the advent of early TV
(2) Other stage comics - e.g. Cantor - superficially survived (for decades) through the use of stooges and/or the introduction of new discoveries (in Cantor's case, The Mad Russian, Parkyakarkus, Dinah Shore, Deanna Durbin, Bobby Breen, Eddie Fisher).
(3) Lesser known, or able, comics survived and bettered their stage careers by finding, in radio, new formats better suited for themselves (Amos and Andy - the comedy serial, Fred Allen- topical humor, Jack Benny- the sitcom).
..................................................................................................................................................
When I'm not busy solving world crises here on Nitrateville, I'm also wondering this:
If commercial TV broadcasting in the US had arrived in the 1930s,
the Golden Age of Radio might never have occurred,
but what might have been the effect on the film studios?
(1) A collapse akin to the one that occurred in the 1950s ? AND/OR
(2) A greater survival of
(a) Silent films- which would have been used by stations as time fillers ?
(b) Silent stars' careers ?

[Gumlegs]

William Haines made a few talkies, but he didn't last long.

[FrankFay]

William Haines made a few talkies, but he didn't last long.

He was loosing his youth & he always had a rather narrow acting range. I think that once he broke with films & went into decorating he had no desire to look back

[Harlett O'Dowd]

William Haines made a few talkies, but he didn't last long.

He was loosing his youth & he always had a rather narrow acting range. I think that once he broke with films & went into decorating he had no desire to look back

Actually, Haines was at his peak of popularity with his first couple of talkies, but yes, he hit 30 and HARD in late 1930 - AND the formula of the brash young athlete/serviceman who gets his comeuppance before winning the big event AND the girl was growing thin - AND his partner's (more than his) off-screen shenanigans were starting to make Mayer nervous.

Haines and Crawford were very close and I suspect Haines' fall from grace greatly impacted Crawford and her choices, leading to her phoenix-like re-inventions every 5 years or so. Considering she was at the studio most prone to run formulas into the ground, it was a smart move. I wonder if she would have figured out how to survive had she started elsewhere.

[Mitch Farish]

So far I haven't heard much about the great character actors who were as successful in talkies. There were Eugene Pallette, Frank Morgan, Adolphe Menjou, Victor Moore, Tully Marshall, Montague Love, H. B. Warner, Joseph Schildkraut, Marie Dressler, Edna Mae Oliver, Zazu Pitts. Robert Warwick came down from leading roles but continued to work steadily.

[Harold Aherne]

And might this be cyclical? I found it interesting that, for different reasons, Shearer, Garbo and Crawford all left MGM during the 1942-43 season or thereabouts. Apart from the men who left to serve and didn't return to film (Leslie Howard) are there others who appear to have faded away during the war years? Those NOT blacklisted who left 1948-50? And then, of course, the massive reduction of studio contracts in 1954-55.

And so on?

There were quite a few performers whose film careers slowed or ended between the mid-40s and early 50s, although some of this can be attributed to the rise of television and the decreased output of the Hollywood studios. For example, the online AFI catalogue shows 524 American features in 1940, but only 242 in 1959. Those numbers will change slightly when adjusted for premiere dates, but the overall trend is clear.

The following performers all had significant gaps when they didn't make any theatrical features, although most were active in radio, TV or stage work, so they didn't really disappear from public consciousness:

Ralph Bellamy: only one film between 1945 and 1960
Alice Faye: none between 1945 and 1962
Lee Tracy: only one after 1947
Nelson Eddy: last film in 1947
Deanna Durbin: last film in 1948 (and when she was done with her career, she was truly done)
Chester Morris: only three after 1949
Jeanette MacDonald: last film in 1949
William Gargan: only two after 1949
Sally Eilers: last film in 1950
Robert Montgomery: last on-camera role in 1950, narrated/directed The Gallant Hours in 1960
James Dunn: three small film roles after 1951

I don't know how much of the foregoing means anything -- certainly, TV shows like "Robert Montgomery Presents" and "It's a Great Life", as well as Phil Harris' and Alice Faye's radio program, probably attracted similar or larger audiences than their films. When a person looks at the filmographies of musical stars of the time, quite a number of their final films (or last films before a long hiatus) cluster around 1955-1958, just as the studios were cutting back on the number of musicals they produced. Comparable patterns could perhaps be found for any number of years, so there might be some level of "extinction" going on at almost any given time.

-HA

[westegg]

Very interesting reading. Why it's taken me this long (I'm nearly 60) to fully grasp that most stars had the lifespan of a firefly, or at least were threatened with such. Yet we now revere them as these lasting fixtures of Classic Hollywood. But the reality was that many were lucky to grab what they could while the going was good. I'm sure many big names faced the inevitable day they knew they were no longer hot stuff, regardless of their talent. One can easily see it today--name some stars from ten years ago and see if they can actually open a movie anymore.

[FrankFay]

Very interesting reading. Why it's taken me this long (I'm nearly 60) to fully grasp that most stars had the lifespan of a firefly, or at least were threatened with such. Yet we now revere them as these lasting fixtures of Classic Hollywood. But the reality was that many were lucky to grab what they could while the going was good. I'm sure many big names faced the inevitable day they knew they were no longer hot stuff, regardless of their talent. One can easily see it today--name some stars from ten years ago and see if they can actually open a movie anymore.

It is also remarkable that we'll revere a star based on a relatively small part of their output- to some people William Powell is "The Thin Man" (incorrectly) and they would be astonished at the mass of films he made.

[westegg]

Reminds me of these autograph conventions where the range of signers range from legitimate legends to someone whose sole claim to fame was one appearance on a 1967 TV show. Ah, show biz.

[entredeuxguerres]

...to some people William Powell is "The Thin Man" (incorrectly) and they would be astonished at the mass of films he made.

To me, it's at about that point--when he took on the Thin Man persona, followed shortly by the heavy hand of the Code--that my previously immense admiration begins to slump; The Key is probably the last picture of his for which I retain all my former enthusiasm.

[Eric Cohen]

"(3)the ultimate prevalence of lesser, more versatile species and totally new ones."

I don't know if she was a "lesser" species but Nancy Carroll was a rising silent lead actress (5 movies- presumed lost) who was ideally suited for the transition, with B'Way musical experience and that porcelain complexion perfect for 2-strip Technicolor. And she could act, whereas Buddy Rogers...

Last year, Capitolfest featured William Powell and we saw him in a rare sympathetic silent role in Forgotten Faces (great movie). This year it's Nancy Carroll:
http://www.romecapitol.com/capitolfest.html" target="_blank