Does Anybody Know What Mental Disorder Clara Bow had?

Open, general discussion of silent films, personalities and history.
User avatar
BankofAmericasSweetheart
Posts: 312
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:01 am
Location: Los Angeles,CA
Contact:

Does Anybody Know What Mental Disorder Clara Bow had?

Unread post by BankofAmericasSweetheart » Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:25 pm

I was reading a quick IMDB on Bow during some free time and I guess I never knew she suffered from mental illness. Are there any biographies or researchers that uncovered what Bow possibly had or what she was diagnosed with? Apparently her mother suffered from mental illness too and attempted to kill her? Were they both schizophrenic?
"It would have been more logical if silent pictures had grown out of the talkies instead of the other way around." - MP

Jeff Crouse
Posts: 192
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:22 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Does Anybody Know What Mental Disorder Clara Bow had?

Unread post by Jeff Crouse » Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:56 pm

Read David Stenn's biography of Bow, it goes into all the details there. Unfortunately she had a harrowing life, from beginning to end, in so many tragic ways. Nevertheless, despite the personal pain, she left us her movies, and her vitality.

Big Silent Fan
Posts: 993
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 8:54 pm

Re: Does Anybody Know What Mental Disorder Clara Bow had?

Unread post by Big Silent Fan » Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:24 am

Before you pass judgement on Clara Bow's Mental Disorder it might be a good idea to spend some time learning about her whole life in and out of Hollywood. There's some really good bios available, "Clara Bow: Discovering the IT Girl" (narrated by Courtney Love) for one.
More than once, it was a tragic turn of events that drove her into despair. She thought she'd found true love and a new life outside Hollywood, after going through a scandal and some very stressful court battles (which she won), only to find that the love of her life abandoned her (and his boys) for a life in politics.

Like many of the Hollywood legends, Clara Bow believed in herself and made her own way to fame.

User avatar
Frederica
Posts: 4853
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:00 pm
Location: Kowea Town, Los Angeles

Re: Does Anybody Know What Mental Disorder Clara Bow had?

Unread post by Frederica » Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:49 am

Big Silent Fan wrote:Before you pass judgement on Clara Bow's Mental Disorder it might be a good idea to spend some time learning about her whole life in and out of Hollywood.
Ms. Bank didn't pass any judgements, she just asked a question.
Fred
"Screw the men. I've got the horse."
Helen B. (Penny) Chenery
http://www.nitanaldi.com" target="_blank"
http://www.facebook.com/NitaNaldiSilentVamp" target="_blank"

Big Silent Fan
Posts: 993
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 8:54 pm

Re: Does Anybody Know What Mental Disorder Clara Bow had?

Unread post by Big Silent Fan » Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:56 pm

Frederica wrote:Ms. Bank didn't pass any judgements, she just asked a question.
That's exactly right. We all form opinions based on what we see or read about someone. That's all that my post addressed.

All Darc
Posts: 1227
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:13 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Does Anybody Know What Mental Disorder Clara Bow had?

Unread post by All Darc » Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:43 pm

The actual psychiatry says that everyone today have some mental disorder of some kind more or less.


Clara maybe was histrionic, or have some traces of it,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histrionic ... y_disorder" target="_blank


Many star had deep problems, had traumas, or was abused, like Brooks, Harlow...
"Normal" person probably would never be so defient as the early stars was. Hollywood would not have being the same with normal people.
Keep thinking...

Image

User avatar
LeRoyShield1930
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:15 pm
Location: New York, NY

Re: Does Anybody Know What Mental Disorder Clara Bow had?

Unread post by LeRoyShield1930 » Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:10 pm

Clara didn't suffer from schizophrenia, but Clara did suffer from it...

User avatar
BankofAmericasSweetheart
Posts: 312
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:01 am
Location: Los Angeles,CA
Contact:

Re: Does Anybody Know What Mental Disorder Clara Bow had?

Unread post by BankofAmericasSweetheart » Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:09 pm

All Darc wrote:The actual psychiatry says that everyone today have some mental disorder of some kind more or less.


Clara maybe was histrionic, or have some traces of it,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histrionic ... y_disorder" target="_blank" target="_blank


Many star had deep problems, had traumas, or was abused, like Brooks, Harlow...
"Normal" person probably would never be so defient as the early stars was. Hollywood would not have being the same with normal people.
Well I believe in each mental problem as a spectrum and I believe we all fall into a spectrum whether it's barely noticeble or extreme. I don't think anyone is 100 percent mentally balanced.... we all have, obsession, compulsive behaviors, depression, anxiety, mania, delusions, etc. at one time or repeated times throughout life.

What I don't believe in is the term Hysteria or a woman that is "hysterical". I thought that was a very old fashioned term and a made up disorder or shall I say... "outdated term that describes a woman overreacting or extremely moody from the perspective of "proper society" during that time period". What is teetering slightly off topic but amusing is the kind of treatment these women got by their doctors. Besides the usual institutionalized method or supplying them with an opiate, some of the women sought treatment through a technique where the doctors inserted some vibrating device into you know where..... and that made them happy. And thus...... that device was born........ ;) The amazing things you can still learn from watching The History Channel besides Ancient Aliens.
"It would have been more logical if silent pictures had grown out of the talkies instead of the other way around." - MP

T0m M
Posts: 375
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:51 am

Re: Does Anybody Know What Mental Disorder Clara Bow had?

Unread post by T0m M » Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:43 am

Bow was officially diagnosed with schizophrenia, though one really should read the Stern biography to get a better appreciation her particular situation. For instance, given her condition, apparently giving up acting and settling down to domestic life was a prescription for exacerbating her condition.

All Darc
Posts: 1227
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:13 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Does Anybody Know What Mental Disorder Clara Bow had?

Unread post by All Darc » Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:37 pm

Histeria it's a old fashion obsolete term used to refer to any unusual female behavior. It was a very medíocre thing, a nearly pseudoscience.
Histrionic it's a compelte diferente thing, and refer to a personality disorder.

Pelvic massages was very often used to treat "histeria" in women. Yes, in that place you said...
Until 1910 most female visits to the doctor was for "happys sessions".

Indeed that' how the vibrator was invented. Because the doctors usually got very tired of so much work with the arms.



By the way. Let's think about how a average women of today would be diagnosticated in the 1920's...
Even the called "modern" psychiatry of today it's target of severe critics...

BankofAmericasSweetheart wrote:
All Darc wrote:The actual psychiatry says that everyone today have some mental disorder of some kind more or less.


Clara maybe was histrionic, or have some traces of it,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histrionic ... y_disorder" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank


Many star had deep problems, had traumas, or was abused, like Brooks, Harlow...
"Normal" person probably would never be so defient as the early stars was. Hollywood would not have being the same with normal people.
Well I believe in each mental problem as a spectrum and I believe we all fall into a spectrum whether it's barely noticeble or extreme. I don't think anyone is 100 percent mentally balanced.... we all have, obsession, compulsive behaviors, depression, anxiety, mania, delusions, etc. at one time or repeated times throughout life.

What I don't believe in is the term Hysteria or a woman that is "hysterical". I thought that was a very old fashioned term and a made up disorder or shall I say... "outdated term that describes a woman overreacting or extremely moody from the perspective of "proper society" during that time period". What is teetering slightly off topic but amusing is the kind of treatment these women got by their doctors. Besides the usual institutionalized method or supplying them with an opiate, some of the women sought treatment through a technique where the doctors inserted some vibrating device into you know where..... and that made them happy. And thus...... that device was born........ ;) The amazing things you can still learn from watching The History Channel besides Ancient Aliens.
Keep thinking...

Image

User avatar
Einar the Lonely
Posts: 576
Joined: Fri May 29, 2009 2:40 pm
Location: Berlin, Babylon

Re: Does Anybody Know What Mental Disorder Clara Bow had?

Unread post by Einar the Lonely » Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:09 pm

The actual psychiatry says that everyone today have some mental disorder of some kind more or less.
It's all about stretching definitions, is it? For whatever reasons I don't want to know...
Kaum hatte Hutter die Brücke überschritten, da ergriffen ihn die unheimlichen Gesichte, von denen er mir oft erzählt hat.

http://gimlihospital.wordpress.com/

User avatar
BankofAmericasSweetheart
Posts: 312
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:01 am
Location: Los Angeles,CA
Contact:

Re: Does Anybody Know What Mental Disorder Clara Bow had?

Unread post by BankofAmericasSweetheart » Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:37 am

Einar the Lonely wrote:
The actual psychiatry says that everyone today have some mental disorder of some kind more or less.
It's all about stretching definitions, is it? For whatever reasons I don't want to know...
I'm digressing a little further so I apologize in advance,
I don't like the modern disorders in the DSM books. Back then, if god forbid you were gay or found gay, you were "mentally ill" and they probably did all kinds of terrible procedures on patients to try and "cure" them.

But even today they have some weird disorders that are highly questionable. For example, apparently if a little girl is too much of a tomboy, she could be diagnosed as having "gender identity disorder". I mean.... really? what's wrong with being a tomboy?

Clara Bow is lucky they didn't do a lobotomy on her, she was mentally ill around that time where doctors were performing that procedure on supposedly "mentally ill" people.

Anyway, I majored in Psychology & Film Studies as an undergrad a few years ago so that's why whenever I read about an interesting person being "ill mentally" during the 1930s... with no real diagnosis or questionable one, I always want to figure out what was wrong with them.

Are there any other silent movie people who were diagnosed or speculated as being mentally ill at some point in their life?
"It would have been more logical if silent pictures had grown out of the talkies instead of the other way around." - MP

User avatar
Einar the Lonely
Posts: 576
Joined: Fri May 29, 2009 2:40 pm
Location: Berlin, Babylon

Re: Does Anybody Know What Mental Disorder Clara Bow had?

Unread post by Einar the Lonely » Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:24 am

But even today they have some weird disorders that are highly questionable. For example, apparently if a little girl is too much of a tomboy, she could be diagnosed as having "gender identity disorder". I mean.... really? what's wrong with being a tomboy?
Isn't it rather the other way around nowadays, that some people worry more whether children will grow up being too "gender-normative"? There is really screwed-up stuff happening in Sweden for example in regard to gender-engineering from an early age on. Likewise, all those "attention deficit hyperactivity disorders" etc. that psychiatrists apply to little children nowadays very quickly seem highly questionable. Probably the medication industry has a word to say as well about this stretching of definitions...
Kaum hatte Hutter die Brücke überschritten, da ergriffen ihn die unheimlichen Gesichte, von denen er mir oft erzählt hat.

http://gimlihospital.wordpress.com/

T0m M
Posts: 375
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:51 am

Re: Does Anybody Know What Mental Disorder Clara Bow had?

Unread post by T0m M » Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:17 am

BankofAmericasSweetheart wrote:...Clara Bow is lucky they didn't do a lobotomy on her, she was mentally ill around that time where doctors were performing that procedure on supposedly "mentally ill" people...Are there any other silent movie people who were diagnosed or speculated as being mentally ill at some point in their life?
Arguably, the electro-shock treatments that she had to endure were worse. Going into an electro-shock treatment, you still have the horrible memories of previous treatments.

Renee Falconetti reportedly suffered suffered from mental illness for her entire life, before committing suicide. I imagine there were a lot of cases that went unadiagnosed or were misdiagnosed.

User avatar
Einar the Lonely
Posts: 576
Joined: Fri May 29, 2009 2:40 pm
Location: Berlin, Babylon

Re: Does Anybody Know What Mental Disorder Clara Bow had?

Unread post by Einar the Lonely » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:12 am

Really, Falconetti committed suicide? Is that confirmed or just a rumour?
Kaum hatte Hutter die Brücke überschritten, da ergriffen ihn die unheimlichen Gesichte, von denen er mir oft erzählt hat.

http://gimlihospital.wordpress.com/

T0m M
Posts: 375
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:51 am

Re: Does Anybody Know What Mental Disorder Clara Bow had?

Unread post by T0m M » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:59 am

I realize that the circumstances surrounding Falconetti's death are contentious with some forum members, but given that both Dreyer and her daughter were convinced it was suicide, it's the most commonly accepted reason of death.

User avatar
greta de groat
Posts: 2139
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:06 am
Location: California
Contact:

Re: Does Anybody Know What Mental Disorder Clara Bow had?

Unread post by greta de groat » Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:00 am

There're was Frances Farmer in the 30s.

A lot of people drank heavily in those days, which probably disguised some behavior which would now be considered possible signs of mental illness.

Greta
Greta de Groat
Unsung Divas of the Silent Screen
http://www.stanford.edu/~gdegroat

salus
Posts: 570
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 4:22 pm

Re: Does Anybody Know What Mental Disorder Clara Bow had?

Unread post by salus » Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:36 am

Another earlier serial silent star Mary Fuller also was ravaged by mental illness ,she spent many years in a sanitarium

User avatar
Smari1989
Posts: 438
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:14 am
Location: Norway

Re: Does Anybody Know What Mental Disorder Clara Bow had?

Unread post by Smari1989 » Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:26 am

Max Linder suffered from severe depressions after some horrible experiences in World War I...tragically, he eventually took his own life.
Did Clara Bow undergo electro-shock treatment? That must've been in the very earliest days of the method, since I don't think it became common until the early 50s (later than lobotomy). At that time a patient would probably not even be granted a form of anesthesia. Things have improved a little in that regard, but E-shock is still far from a safe-proof treatment method, with doctors all too often denying or downplaying its negative aftereffects (which I know a little about).

Bob Furem
Posts: 296
Joined: Fri May 21, 2010 9:55 pm

Re: Does Anybody Know What Mental Disorder Clara Bow had?

Unread post by Bob Furem » Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:56 pm

Clara had "Hollywood Up My A**" disease. It was inflicted on her by an unappreciative Paramount.

T0m M
Posts: 375
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:51 am

Re: Does Anybody Know What Mental Disorder Clara Bow had?

Unread post by T0m M » Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:00 am

Smari1989 wrote:...Did Clara Bow undergo electro-shock treatment? That must've been in the very earliest days of the method, since I don't think it became common until the early 50s (later than lobotomy)....
It is my understanding that electroconvulsize therapy was developed just prior to World War II and was fairly common throughout the 1940s and 1950s. Stenn mentions Clara's shock therapy in both his book and a videotaped interview. According to the book, Cara's treatments were administered during her Oct. 01 1949 to July 27 1950 stay at the Institute of Living in Hartford Conneticut. At the time, she would have been 44 years of age.
Bob Furem wrote:...Clara had "Hollywood Up My A**" disease. It was inflicted on her by an unappreciative Paramount.
While Clara's treatment at Parmount was far from ideal, it appears to have had a minor impact on her mental status in comparison to her relationships with her parenets. The major point that I brought aware from Stenn's book is that Clara may have been happiest when she was an actress, as the artistic expression provided an emotional release. If she had the disease you mention, maybe she caught it from Louise Brooks.

Michael O'Regan
Posts: 2124
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:52 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: Does Anybody Know What Mental Disorder Clara Bow had?

Unread post by Michael O'Regan » Sat Nov 09, 2013 2:31 pm

I would emphasise what some of the above have said or intimated. One needs to know something of Bow's life, career, etc. in order to understand her mental status.
"Mental Disorder" is insufficient.

Wm. Charles Morrow
Posts: 1165
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2010 4:10 pm
Location: Westchester County, NY

Re: Does Anybody Know What Mental Disorder Clara Bow had?

Unread post by Wm. Charles Morrow » Sat Nov 09, 2013 5:22 pm

BankofAmericasSweetheart wrote:Are there any other silent movie people who were diagnosed or speculated as being mentally ill at some point in their life?
There was Kalla Pasha (1877-1933), a character actor who worked for all the major comedy producers in the 1920s, such as Al Christie, Hal Roach, and, most often, Mack Sennett. He frequently played opposite Ben Turpin. According to Brent Walker's book on the Sennett Studio, Pasha was arrested in April 1932 after he assaulted a streetcar conductor in Glendale. He was found not guilty by reason of insanity, and confined to a mental hospital in Talmadge, California, where he died a year later.

Tyler Brooke (1886-1943) is another comedian from the silent days who seems to have had some kind of personality disorder. He worked at Roach from 1925 to '27, then at various other studios. In 1929 he got into an altercation with Oliver Hardy during a game of billiards, and later filed a lawsuit, claiming that Hardy struck him with a billiard cue and injured his arm. (The case was settled out of court.) Brooke appeared in small roles through the '30s and into the '40s, but drank heavily, and eventually committed suicide in 1943. Nowadays he would likely be diagnosed as bi-polar, or something along those lines.
-- Charlie Morrow

All Darc
Posts: 1227
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:13 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Does Anybody Know What Mental Disorder Clara Bow had?

Unread post by All Darc » Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:23 pm

if we see many diferente cultures, we can say that normal it's a relative thing.

Psychiatry it's target of many critic, like being a social agent control.
Until 1974 psychiatry american association considered gay behavior a disease, and only after the gays make protests they reconsidered. So, sometimes, it's more politics than science.

Only after women get some power is that psychiatry reconsidered many prejudices.

Society changes and they arguments and clasifications changes. When someting became more usual they tend to remove from the "disease list".

I wonder why not consider stupidity a disease... since most people was stupid... But the doctors were stupid too back then...
Einar the Lonely wrote:
But even today they have some weird disorders that are highly questionable. For example, apparently if a little girl is too much of a tomboy, she could be diagnosed as having "gender identity disorder". I mean.... really? what's wrong with being a tomboy?
Isn't it rather the other way around nowadays, that some people worry more whether children will grow up being too "gender-normative"? There is really screwed-up stuff happening in Sweden for example in regard to gender-engineering from an early age on. Likewise, all those "attention deficit hyperactivity disorders" etc. that psychiatrists apply to little children nowadays very quickly seem highly questionable. Probably the medication industry has a word to say as well about this stretching of definitions...
Last edited by All Darc on Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Keep thinking...

Image

Online
User avatar
boblipton
Posts: 6258
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:01 pm
Location: Clement Clarke Moore's Farm

Re: Does Anybody Know What Mental Disorder Clara Bow had?

Unread post by boblipton » Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:48 pm

My sister once called my mother in tears because one of her son's teachers told her the boy was hyperactive and unteachable. So my mother flew down and showed the teacher what hyperactivity looked like. Her theory was that if you encouraged the kid to run around, he grew tired and sat down. For really difficult cases, like my cousin Larry, she taught the kid to tap dance. Larry is now head of the physics department at his university.

Bob
Last edited by boblipton on Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Life's too short to sit on our rears watching other people's work.
— Bob Fells

User avatar
silentfilm
Moderator
Posts: 9423
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:31 pm
Location: Dallas, TX USA
Contact:

Re: Does Anybody Know What Mental Disorder Clara Bow had?

Unread post by silentfilm » Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:25 pm

My oldest son has ADHD. When he was a toddler we thought that all kids acted that way, but when our second boy came along and was so much easier, we knew that something was different about our first. He was diagnosed with ADHD at five. He has taken some medication, which helped at first, but he mostly required a lot of behavior-modification parenting. I know some people don't think it is a real mental disorder, but trust me, it does exist. Basically, it is a mild form of autism.

After 10 years, he handles it well. He still gets distracted easily sometimes. However, a side effect is that children with ADHD can be brilliant with interests that fascinate them. So he can play three instruments and writes music, and his AP 10th grade math is tougher than anything I ever attempted in high school.

Online
User avatar
boblipton
Posts: 6258
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:01 pm
Location: Clement Clarke Moore's Farm

Re: Does Anybody Know What Mental Disorder Clara Bow had?

Unread post by boblipton » Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:56 pm

I'm not saying it isn't real, Bruce. What I'm saying is that a lot of lazy "professionals" and parents inflate these claims. The professionals to excuse their inability to do their jobs and the parents to grab a larger share of the common wealth for their own kids. It makes it difficult to deal with real cases and trivializes the problems that kids with real issues and their family suffer.

Me, I suffered from a lot of low-grade allergies and what turned out to be mild dyslexia as a child. Fortunately no one told me about dyslexia -- no such diagnosis then -- so I learned to read at about 1300 words per minute in my sickbed and to think things through in my own peculiar way. As with your son, mild handicaps can be turned to advantage if you go about it right. My cousin the doctor's elder son has suffered from muscular dystrophy for more than twenty years, about a decade and a half being six months away from the grave by means of the latest medical advances. He has also gotten his degree in museum studies and works for two New York museums. As a society I wonder how much we benefit these individuals and society by granting them special privileges without extraordinary duties.

On rereading that before posting it, I admit I am uncertain how appropriate to this forum this particular turn of discussion -- turned by me -- is. However, you have my sympathy for the extraordinary trials you and your family have undergone and my pleasure that things have turned out pretty well.

Bob
Life's too short to sit on our rears watching other people's work.
— Bob Fells

User avatar
Frederica
Posts: 4853
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:00 pm
Location: Kowea Town, Los Angeles

Re: Does Anybody Know What Mental Disorder Clara Bow had?

Unread post by Frederica » Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:23 pm

boblipton wrote:I'm not saying it isn't real, Bruce. What I'm saying is that a lot of lazy "professionals" and parents inflate these claims. The professionals to excuse their inability to do their jobs and the parents to grab a larger share of the common wealth for their own kids. It makes it difficult to deal with real cases and trivializes the problems that kids with real issues and their family suffer.
Bob
On the other hand, Bob, they don't trivialize it as much as you just did.
Fred
"Screw the men. I've got the horse."
Helen B. (Penny) Chenery
http://www.nitanaldi.com" target="_blank"
http://www.facebook.com/NitaNaldiSilentVamp" target="_blank"

User avatar
FrankFay
Posts: 3263
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:48 am
Location: Albany NY
Contact:

Re: Does Anybody Know What Mental Disorder Clara Bow had?

Unread post by FrankFay » Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:46 pm

At this late remove diagnosing illnesses (mental or physical) is just a parlour game. You can apply it to most anyone- was Lloyd Hamilton just a mean drunk, or was he a victim of Bipolar Disorder? I don't know- and honestly I wouldn't care.
Eric Stott

User avatar
Smari1989
Posts: 438
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:14 am
Location: Norway

Re: Does Anybody Know What Mental Disorder Clara Bow had?

Unread post by Smari1989 » Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:29 pm

That's true, Frank Fay. While many diagnoses may be controversial today, they obviously were far more unreliable and diffuse a hundred years ago. Also it's important to remember that recollections of others regarding a person's behavior may not have been accurate, and furthermore events which we don't know much about may have largely shaped a person into what s/he became. Too often in psychiatry it happens that a diagnosis is treated as the sole tool in order to contextualize a person's behavior; "if A meant B to one person with a particular diagnosis, then A has to mean B also to another person with that diagnosis."

Post Reply