Silent Film Tragedies

[Mike Gebert]

Did we ever mention Marcel Perez, given that the facts of his fairly early death were basically established here?

[Wisconsin Mark]

Did we ever mention Marcel Perez, given that the facts of his fairly early death were basically established here?

Yes, he is in the list.

[drednm]

Did anyone mention Marguerite Marsh (1888-1925) pneumonia. Sister of Mae Marsh and Mildred Marsh, who has no death date on IMDb......

[silentfilm]

It's been a day since I look at this thread, and boy did I miss a bunch. Here's my two cents.

I realize that there's a morbid fascination about how rich and/or famous people died, but we need to remember that these were real people. There was a lot of heartache and grief when almost every one of these people have died, whether it was by suicide, car accident or influenza. So while it's "fun" to compile the list, we are talking about real tragedies, whether the victim was a nice person, someone that we admired, someone we've never heard about, or someone known to be a real pr*ck.

Most of the people who read and post on this site are interested in what actually happened during the classic film era, not what the rumor mill says. That's why we go to film conventions to see classic films - to experience them as they actually are, instead of how contemporary reviewers or authors reviewed them. We look up birth and death certificates, draft registrations, movie scripts, and other primary sources to get the real story.

There's a phenomenon, I don't know what the name of it is, that goes like this...

A website (like the IMDB) publishes a completely untrue "fact" submitted by a user. The IMDB sells their content to many other sites, so this "fact" is repeated. Wikipedia sources the IMDB for this "fact". Now more websites and books reference this fact. In a year or two high school and college students everywhere repeat this "fact" in their research papers because it is a well-known "fact". So the scholar, like Brian Taves, is fighting a losing battle trying to tell us what actually happened at Ince's death.

I would expect more from a professor.

[Wisconsin Mark]

Did anyone mention Marguerite Marsh (1888-1925) pneumonia. Sister of Mae Marsh and Mildred Marsh, who has no death date on IMDb......

No, I'll add that one. The most complete version of the list is still on page 4 of this thread.

[drednm]

A good example of an untrue Hollywood "fact" that has been repeated on many web sites and various books is that Marion Davies appeared in the serial Beatrice Fairfax because a copy of the serial was in her private collection. Her having a copy was translated by someone somewhere to her having been in it. The film was in her collection because Hearst was connected to funding it.

The serial exists. Marion Davies is not in the serial. Yet Beatrice Fairfax continues to appear in Davies filmographies, probably because it was listed in books by Lawrence Guiles and Jeanine Basinger. Most likely Guiles extrapolated incorrectly back in the 70s when the serial was believed lost ... or was not accessible.

But it's easy to see how untrue "facts" take on lives of their own in this era of factoids and sloppy research.

[Wisconsin Mark]

It's been a day since I look at this thread, and boy did I miss a bunch. Here's my two cents.

I realize that there's a morbid fascination about how rich and/or famous people died, but we need to remember that these were real people. There was a lot of heartache and grief when almost every one of these people have died, whether it was by suicide, car accident or influenza. So while it's "fun" to compile the list, we are talking about real tragedies, whether the victim was a nice person, someone that we admired, someone we've never heard about, or someone known to be a real pr*ck.

Most of the people who read and post on this site are interested in what actually happened during the classic film era, not what the rumor mill says. That's why we go to film conventions to see classic films - to experience them as they actually are, instead of how contemporary reviewers or authors reviewed them. We look up birth and death certificates, draft registrations, movie scripts, and other primary sources to get the real story.

There's a phenomenon, I don't know what the name of it is, that goes like this...

A website (like the IMDB) publishes a completely untrue "fact" submitted by a user. The IMDB sells their content to many other sites, so this "fact" is repeated. Wikipedia sources the IMDB for this "fact". Now more websites and books reference this fact. In a year or two high school and college students everywhere repeat this "fact" in their research papers because it is a well-known "fact". So the scholar, like Brian Taves, is fighting a losing battle trying to tell us what actually happened at Ince's death.

I would expect more from a professor.

Since you are a moderator, I guess I have permission to respond (?). You are saying exactly what I am saying, just in a different way. I agree with the exist of your "phenomenon," but it doesn't just involve naive or unscrupulous "users." Let me underline this: Errors have been repeated from reference source to reference source for centuries, because reference sources are typically compiled from other reference sources, not from original research.

So Brian Taves (or whoever, in whatever situation) is fighting an uphill battle. Perhaps even more so today than before. He can create new scholarship, but he cannot control the life of that scholarship (and he'd give himself an ulcer trying to). Whether his facts actually become "facts" in the sense I referred to earlier (information that has wide currency) is by no means a given.

None of us can be sure of our "facts" because none of us can investigate each and every one of them personally, and even if we could, we have our own fallibilities. If we don't rely on Wikipedia, or Encyclopedia Britannica, we rely on something. Maybe in the case of Thomas Ince, we rely on Brian Taves because he has standing within an "interpretive community" (channeling Stanley Fish again). But what is accepted within an interpretive community may have tenuous connection at best with what has currency in the wider world.

My view is that our reality is largely constructed, and it is not constructed mainly of "facts" in the sense that most users of this board would define "facts." Our reality is probably a lot constructed of floating bits of misinformation that have more actual weight than most empirical facts, as long as enough people believe in them.

Simple example: The idea of "God" has had the most wide-reaching and enormous consequences for human history whether or not God could ever be proven to exist. Many questionable concepts are more powerful and more influential than many empirical facts. (It is more than likely that there are members of this board who are less empirical about religion - in other words, they don't demand "proof" - than about silent film history, even though one's religious beliefs or lack of them are arguably a much more important issue than one's beliefs about silent film.)

Now I'll shut up about it, again.

[Wisconsin Mark]

To keep my little list in perspective, remember that it is for my amusement; I'm not, as Donald said, disseminating it, except to all of you here, and it is clear what many of you think about it! So even supposing that the list were twenty times as inaccurate as it might be now, and even further supposing that I was willfully making it inaccurate because I was prioritizing rumors, or whatever - still, the end result is perfectly harmless, and in the world of informational exchange, completely, totally meaningless. Those who truly care about the public receiving more empirically accurate information, should all become volunteer editors at Wikipedia, because that IS where people go, and that would truly be making a difference. Taking me to task is just a bunch of wheel-spinning,

[Rick Lanham]

Did anyone mention Marguerite Marsh (1888-1925) pneumonia. Sister of Mae Marsh and Mildred Marsh, who has no death date on IMDb......

According to an item in Photoplay, Mildred Marsh married Ygnacio John Forest in Los Angeles. Later census entries on Ancestry's index spell the surname as Forster. Mildred Forster/Forest is still alive in the 1940 census, living in Inglewood as a widow, with their children. Based upon one child's name, it appears to be the same Mildred, born in Texas, as was the actress. I did not find a death date.

http://books.google.com/books?id=634NAQ ... ss&f=false" target="_blank

Rick

[drednm]

Washington Times March 26, 1921 lists Mildred Marsh married to Spaniard named Ygnacio John Forester. This is in a "film brevities" column. Off named for a "Spaniard."

[odinthor]

Washington Times March 26, 1921 lists Mildred Marsh married to Spaniard named Ygnacio John Forester. This is in a "film brevities" column. Off named for a "Spaniard."

Mirabile dictu, from one of my other lives--in this case, that of a Los Angeles historian--I can address this: As soon as I saw "Spaniard" and "Forester" in the same sentence, I bet myself that this was actually the well-known Forster (note spelling) family of, mostly, San Juan Capistrano, a pioneer family the founder of which dates from the pre-Yankee era of the Southland, the family through marriages being related to the likes of the Pico family (as in sometime Governor Pio Pico, he of the Pico House), the Avila family (casa on Olvera St., big landowners in San Juan Cap), del Valle family (of Rancho Camulos, an inspiration for the novel and subsequent films Ramona), and so on. See the listings at:

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin ... n&id=P1913" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

where you will find Ygnacio Juan Forster and Mildred Marsh down towards the bottom. This reference doesn't seem to know who Mildred Marsh is.

[odinthor]

And here's an interesting item:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 776,741061" target="_blank" target="_blank

[Rick Lanham]

Amazing stuff we find... But still no death date. (Just kidding.)

Rick

[Harlett O'Dowd]

Oh, and by the way:

Mark R. Harris
Profesor de humanidades
Tecnologico de Monterrey, Campus Sinaloa
Blvd. Pedro Infante 3773
Culiacan, CP 80100, Sinaloa, Mexico
+52 (667) 759-1600
[email protected]" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank
[email protected]" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

I bet I won't see any of my critics doing that. Took your dare there, dude.

True enough, there is a Tecnologico de Monterrey:

http://www.itesm.mx/wps/portal?WCM_GLOBAL_CONTEXT=" target="_blank" target="_blank

and while I know of several technical universities, like my own, that dabble in the humanities, the website above mentions no "Profesor de humanidades" in general as part of its faculty and no Mark R. Harris specifically. I also find it odd that Herr Harris' listed emails are not tied back to the university.

Adding to the mystery is your own N'ville profile, on which you list your occupation as a "corporate executive."

I do, however, note that a Mark H Harris does exist in the cyberworld, and he identifies himself as a freelance entertainment writer.

http://horror.about.com/bio/Mark-H-Harris-33500.htm" target="_blank" target="_blank

[Wisconsin Mark]

Oh, and by the way:

Mark R. Harris
Profesor de humanidades
Tecnologico de Monterrey, Campus Sinaloa
Blvd. Pedro Infante 3773
Culiacan, CP 80100, Sinaloa, Mexico
+52 (667) 759-1600
[email protected]" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank
[email protected]" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

I bet I won't see any of my critics doing that. Took your dare there, dude.

True enough, there is a Tecnologico de Monterrey:

http://www.itesm.mx/wps/portal?WCM_GLOBAL_CONTEXT=" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

and while I know of several technical universities, like my own, that dabble in the humanities, the website above mentions no "Profesor de humanidades" in general as part of its faculty and no Mark R. Harris specifically. I also find it odd that Herr Harris' listed emails are not tied back to the university.

Adding to the mystery is your own N'ville profile, on which you list your occupation as a "corporate executive."

I do, however, note that a Mark H Harris does exist in the cyberworld, and he identifies himself as a freelance entertainment writer.

http://horror.about.com/bio/Mark-H-Harris-33500.htm" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Oh, brother. OK, from the top: The Tecnologico de Monterrey is one of Mexico's largest private university systems, with a total of 31 campuses. Most of the campuses include both a university division and a "prepa" or university high school. I teach in the prepa of the Sinaloa campus in Culiacan. Of course, the prepas teach the full range of high school subjects, including humanities. My subjects are: world history, philosophy, social sciences (sociology, psychology, political science, economics), literature, and art history. They have had me teach a lot of different courses.

Here is the nameplate on my office door:



My Bachelor of Arts magna cum laude is from Yale University in American Studies (1980). My Master of Arts in Teaching in English Education was jointly awarded by Boston University's School of Education and Department of English (1999).

I was the Manager of Organizational Developmental and Corporate Education for Enzymatic Therapy, a nutraceutical company in Green Bay, Wisconsin, when I signed up for this group originally, I believe that was in 2008.

"Mark Harris" is a fairly common name. I am not the "Mark H. Harris" that you link to. Neither am I "Mark [E.] Harris," who writes for Entertainment Weekly and is the author of the excellent book Pictures at a Revolution. (He is also a Yalie, and I know him slightly.)

Is everyone satisfied now? I'm trying to retain my poise in the face of my treatment within my group. But I'll tell you, it isn't easy!

[Danny Burk]

I think Mr Harris has gone out of his way to introduce himself - more than anyone else that I can remember here. Let's stop pouncing on him from all sides and give him a breather, OK? He may find that he actually likes it here if given a chance to participate in some of our ongoing conversations (present one excepted). Thanks.

[bobfells]

I think Mr Harris has gone out of his way to introduce himself - more than anyone else that I can remember here. Let's stop pouncing on him from all sides and give him a breather, OK? He may find that he actually likes it here if given a chance to participate in some of our ongoing conversations (present one excepted). Thanks.

That sounds reasonable Danny. So as Prof. Irwin Corey used to say, "What was the question?"

[Danny Burk]

Since some folks aren't able to control their urge to continue picking at wounds, I'm locking this thread. (I don't mean you, Bob)