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Hey, has anyone out there seen the films of James Youngdeer? More specifically WHITE FAWN'S DEVOTION? I'd love to hear opinions on them.

milefilms wrote:Hey, has anyone out there seen the films of James Youngdear? More specifically WHITE FAWN'S DEVOTION? I'd love to hear opinions on them.

Unknown Video's Nickelodea #2 has a Youngdeer film, LITTLE DOVE'S ROMANCE. That's the only Youngdeer I've ever seen. It's a wee bit early for my tastes.

Fred

milefilms wrote:Hey, has anyone out there seen the films of James Youngdear? More specifically WHITE FAWN'S DEVOTION? I'd love to hear opinions on them.

One of his films, The Attack of The Indians, is on the program for Cinesation later this month.

http://www.cinephiles.org/The_Fall_Cinesation.html

Hi Dennis,
I've seen WHITE FAWNS DEVOTION, and we do have a couple of more J. Youngdeer films. I hope you will be interested in them; since I am sure that with some further research more info AND films can be found by Youngdeer and with Princess Red Wing (as I recall his star/wife's name to be).

Okay, I've advanced my research of James Youngdeer and hope people can help me!

According to his 1918 draft registry, he was born April 1, 1876

According to a 1914 ship registry, he was born April 1, 1873

According to a 1902 Technical Work article, he was born in Dakota City and his father was Charles Green Rainbow (who definitely was a Winnebago). A copy of this article or the text itself would be thankfully received.

If anybody can dig up early articles about him, it would be GREATLY appreciated. I do know there's articles in the following Motion Picture World's:

May 6, 1911, page 999
June 29, 1912, page 1218
April 26, 1913, page 367
January 17, 1920, page 397

Also, he was arrested in Los Angeles in 1913 for taking advantage of a young woman. Any local info would be perfect.

Basically, I'm trying to prove he was AUTHENTICALLY a native american so I can add one or two of his directed films on our new DVD.

Thanks!

I don't know much about James Youngdeer other than the notes in the Treasures from the Archives DVD set, but I did watch WHITE FAWN'S DEVOTION again recently. For a 1910 production it is reasonably well-made and certainly interesting for its subject material (sympathetic treatment of mixed-race marriage) and its use of Native American actors. Other than White Fawn and her British husband, however, the characters are very much stereotypes to serve the plot. The acting is predictably broad and each scene is done in one long take staged in long shot, except the chase scene, which moves much more rapidly from one shot to another and provides what was likely an impressive contrast from the style of the rest of the film. Shooting outdoors helps the film's production values greatly.

A quick Google search reveals that WHITE FAWN'S DEVOTION is currently available for viewing on line from at least two sources (likely an uploaded copy from the Treasures DVD, which was missing the final shot and title).

The Fall Cinesation is showing another Youngdeer film this Saturday, THE ATTACK OF THE INDIANS, from about 1911. I'll be interested to see how it compares.

--Christopher Jacobs
http://www.und.edu/instruct/cjacobs
http://hpr1.com/film

I've been trying to find him in the Indian Census Schedules, but so far I haven't turned up anything. There *is*, however, a listing for one Lilly St. Cyr Johnston, age 27, taken in September 1909. Young Deer's birth name is said to have been J. Younger Johnston, and he married Lillian St. Cyr in 1906, so the woman listed could very well have been his wife. No other household members are listed, however, so I really can't be sure.

-Harold

I am trying to confirm that James Youngdeer and Red Wing worked for D.W. Griffith. Can anyone help?

According to D.W. Griffith and the Biograph Company by Cooper C. Graham, Steven Higgins, Elaine Mancini, and Joao Luiz Vieira, both appeared in D.W. Griffith's The Mended Lute (1909). Early Motion Pictures: The Paper Print Collection in the Library of Congress also lists them in this film.

That seems to be their only Biograph credit with Griffith.

I'd have to go looking through sources to confirm it, but I vaguely recall reading that Youngdeer was a consultant on Griffith's 1909 Biograph The Red Man's View (1909), even if he didn't appear in it.

--Christopher Jacobs
http://www.und.edu/instruct/cjacobs

Here's what I have so far on James Youngdeer and Lillian St. Cyr:

The Native American, 23 June 1906, p. 202, announcing their marriage on 9 April that year. His name is given as J. Younger Johnston, he is listed as a graduate of Carlisle, and interestingly is named as having an Indian and Spanish background.

Technical World Magazine, p. 466 [1910], talks about a 150,000 bead vest made by James Young Deer and modeled by Red Wing. Young Deer is said to be 30, from the Winnebago Reservation in Nebraska, son of Green Rainbow, educated at Carlisle and married to Red Wing.

I have checked every Indian census from 1894 to 1926 for any variation of Young Deer and Green Rainbow. Young Deer is not listed under that name or Younger Johnson or James Johnston. This is telling since Native Americans were listed on this schedule regardless of where they lived. Also, Youngdeer is a Cherokee name. Green Rainbow or Charles Green Rainbow definitely existed at the Winnebago reservation, born around 1850 and died in 1926. His obituary does not list survivors. His entries in the census do not include sons, but two daughters. However the earliest census entry I can find for him is 1891, plenty of time for a son born in 1873/6 to have moved out.

I am awaiting email back from the lady who runs the remarkable Carlisle School website to confirm anything about Young Deer.

Young Deer and wife are listed at the Cuddeback Inn with Griffith in 1909.

I do believe that Young Deer and Red Wing divorced around 1920. Lillian St. Cyr who is listed as Lillian St. Cyr Johnston in the Indian Censuses from 1907 until 1920, dropped the Johnston around then and was listed as single. Young Deer shows up in Los Angeles press in the 1930s with a wife Helen. Lillian's obituaries do not mention him at all.

I have information about his arrest and subsequent fleeing the country in 1913 in LA, which was all eventually droppped, if anyone wants the gory details.

I have an entry in the California Death Index for a James Y. Johnston who died in 1940 and a Helen Adair Johnston who died in 1990. His birthdate and place is all wrong, but since everything else about him has been contradictary, I cannot be surprised!

Yet another work in progress....

Is it wrong that I keep thinking of the OTHER Lili St Cyr?:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lili_St._Cyr

Hmmm, wrong may not be the right word...

Oh oh I want gory details! LOL! Ever since my race in silent film articles I've been interested in these two; though they are both quite a mystery.

OK, the rest of the story.... (abstracts of newspaper articles)

Los Angeles Times, 24 Nov 1913, "Arrest Movie Man" -- James Youngdeer was arrested for contributing to the deliquency of Miss Marie Wilkerson, an actress. Her sister made the complaint. Youngdeer made $1500 bail, but insisted someone had impersonated him, taking money and promising film roles.

LAT, 25 Nov 1913, "Girl's Called Blackmailer" -- Marie Wilkerson was arrested in alledged blackmail scheme against Youngdeer and local businessman Frank Troxler. Both men declared they had been approached for money for Miss Wilkerson to leave the city. She had asked for $100 to leave LA, and had accepted $15 in marked money from Troxler's brother under police surveillance. Youngdeer was approached by Miss Wilkerson's sister and made arrangements to meet her with payment under police supervision as well. The sister failed to show after she heard her sister had been arrested.

LAT, 27 Dec 1913, "Pleads Justice for the Indian" -- Youngdeer skipped bail while awaiting the trial, writing a letter to the judge asking for time to raise necesary funds to receive a fair hearing. [Now the charges were deliquency of Miss Wilkerson and a "statutory offense."] Youngdeer pointed out that he was an employed businessman but had to put up bail money because of his race while the unemployed Troxler was released on his personal bond because he was white. The judge took Youngdeer at his word, declaring that the he believed the Indian's pledged word to be good.

LAT, 7 Oct 1914, "Indian May Come Back" -- Youngdeeer, now in England, occasionally writes to the judge to emphasize his innocence and determination to return for trial. "He is an Indian, and for that racial fact Judge Taft says he still trusts him to come back."

LAT, 4 Dec 1914, "Now She's Gone and Youngdeer Freed" -- Charges were dismissed against Youngdeer when it was determined that Miss Wilkerson had left LA.

There's a lot more in the Fox files about his arrest -- most of it worse.

milefilms wrote:There's a lot more in the Fox files about his arrest -- most of it worse.

DO TELL. This is no place for discretion.

Fred

Frederica wrote:

milefilms wrote:There's a lot more in the Fox files about his arrest -- most of it worse.

DO TELL. This is no place for discretion.

Fred

Sorry -- I don't have my notes on this (and I completed my work on James Youngdeer so I'm on to Sherman Alexie -- who EVERYBODY should read) but Kevin B told me this and I believe there was a book that came out a couple years ago with Fox's papers that had all this.

Anybody?

milefilms wrote:
Sorry -- I don't have my notes on this (and I completed my work on James Youngdeer so I'm on to Sherman Alexie -- who EVERYBODY should read) but Kevin B told me this and I believe there was a book that came out a couple years ago with Fox's papers that had all this.

Anybody?

I have William Fox, Sol M. Wurtzel, etc., but it has nothing in it about James Youngdeer. Doggone.

Fred

Frederica wrote:

milefilms wrote:
Sorry -- I don't have my notes on this (and I completed my work on James Youngdeer so I'm on to Sherman Alexie -- who EVERYBODY should read) but Kevin B told me this and I believe there was a book that came out a couple years ago with Fox's papers that had all this.

Anybody?

I have William Fox, Sol M. Wurtzel, etc., but it has nothing in it about James Youngdeer. Doggone.

Fred

Well, white slavery and underage hanky panky (that would include sex and nasal congestion) were said to be involved and as I recall, there were memos from Fox Studios that agreed with the assessment. Whether they had any real basis for knowledge is what I can't say.

James Youngdeer's heritage is at best murky. He's definitely NOT on the Winnebago rolls, according to several Winnebago tribal historians (who believe that Youngdeer was nothing more than an opportunist). No search for the name YOUNGDEER appears on the Indian Census for the Winnebago. Although publicity said he was from Carlisle, the archivist there said he was not. Much that was written in MPW appears to be publicity hype.

BBC Radio did a segment in 2010 about Youngdeer and his ventures in England after he bolted from his charges against minors in LA and OC. No one interviewed could definitely say who he was.

A few geneologists have looked into Yougdeer's heritage, and so far he appears to have been from the east coast, not Nebraska or Oklahoma. His identity appears to be of mixed black/white ancestry or mulatto. If there's any Indian blood in him, it will be difficult to trace.

Edwin Carewe was an early prominent director of Native American heritage (he's on the Chickasaw rolls). Someone should bring out his feature films--whichever ones still exist.

susanbry wrote:James Youngdeer's heritage is at best murky. He's definitely NOT on the Winnebago rolls, according to several Winnebago tribal historians (who believe that Youngdeer was nothing more than an opportunist).

This is from my research from some time ago so it's "best as I can remember..."

You're right, he as not on the rolls. But, back when I was doing research, I did in fact get a phone call message from David Smith (http://www.winnebagotribe.com/tribal_historian.html) the Winnebago tribal historian who did say that Youngdeer was definitely a member of the tribe.

I went on and looked further and did not find any proof about his background much less from the east, but as I remember, the man he named as his father does exist on the tribal records and Youngdeer did visit the tribe with his wife after becoming famous and the local papers said it was a homecoming.

Nonetheless, I do feel it's still open for proof and on THE EXILES dvd, I qualified his status as film's first native american director as possibly questionable though I did state the truth that tribal historian's opinions are recognized in these cases. I don't believe the Arizona marriage certificate is proof either way due to most states' miscegenation laws or practices prevalent at that time.

The Winnebago don't recall ever mentioning that he was a member of their tribe under the name of Youngdeer or any other name. Perhaps an innocent misunderstanding. Unfortunately, when businesses attach a specific tribal name to a product or merchandise, problematic situations like this occur. As far as a Green Rainbow appearing on the rolls, if Youngdeer were his son, he too would appear. Tribal rolls are not the same as the Federal Census; they serve to identify who receives allotments, annuities, benefits, etc. There's no reason someone's child would have been deliberately left off the rolls. Also, for the Winnebago, the rolls were taken annually. Note that in these tribal rolls, family groups are listed together; that is, all the Indian members of the household.

The article cited about Youngdeer and his father appears to be more publicity hype, much like the bio for him in MPW. The AZ marriage certificate only adds more mystery since he frequently changes his race and ethnicity and age and birthplace and name (and even marriage date) on vital records.

Of course he visited the rez, as he was married to Lillian. An article from one of the Nebraska newspapers in the early 'teens mentioned some of the noteworthy Winnebago including Lillian and the fact that she was married to a Johnston. But no mention of Youngdeer or Johnston's Winnebago heritage whatsoever.
Other earlier silent screen actors also passed themselves off as Indians, like Bufffalo Child (although historians claim some Cherokee but no Blackfoot that he boasted of) and Mona Darkfeather, who was not a Seminole from Florida. Looks like Youngdeer joins that list.

susanbry wrote: Other earlier silent screen actors also passed themselves off as Indians, like Bufffalo Child (although historians claim some Cherokee but no Blackfoot that he boasted of) and Mona Darkfeather, who was not a Seminole from Florida. Looks like Youngdeer joins that list.

Sorry, but until we can prove who James Youngdeer actually was, then I don't think we can claim either way. And I do have the phone record and the transcription of the message and there is no misunderstanding. At the same time...

All the other people we can prove posing as Indian have real records and histories. Chief Buffalo Child Long Lance was indeed Sylvester Long and there is a wonderful book and documentary by Donald B. Smith with facts and documentation. There's dozens more like him.

There needs to be more research into James Youngdeer.

Youngdeer is not Winnebago. Two tribal historians have already documented in writing that he is not. And they are wondering why people keep arguing over someone they don't recognize as a tribal member.

Lillian appears on the rolls almost every year. There is a mention that she married a Johnston, but he's not listed as a member.

We can claim that he's not on those rolls. And on the BBC interview, no one, including a Native American historian, could claim he was Winnebago.

susanbry wrote:Youngdeer is not Winnebago. Two tribal historians have already documented in writing that he is not. And they are wondering why people keep arguing over someone they don't recognize as a tribal member.

And the name of these two historians?

The documentation on his Winnebago heritage, or lack thereof, has been published in a book about Hollywood and Native Americans. And two tribal historians have stated that he is not Winnebago. Anyway, he's not on those rolls.

susanbry wrote:The documantation on his Winnebago heritage, or lack thereof, has been published in a book about Hollywood and Native Americans. Anyway, he's not on those rolls.

Okay, I'm absolutely done with this conversation. My last note on this. I spent six months of research on James Youngdeer, documented all of it, named my sources and qualified what I know and don't know.

His marriage certificate to Helen St. Cyr in 1908 states his name was J. Younger Johnson. The Native American, 23 June 1906, p. 202, announcing their marriage on 9 April that year. His name is given as J. Younger Johnston, he is listed as a graduate of Carlisle, and of Indian and Spanish background.

Technical World Magazine, p. 466 [1910], talks about a 150,000 bead vest made by James Young Deer and modeled by Red Wing. In the article, Young Deer is said to be 30, from the Winnebago Reservation in Nebraska, son of Green Rainbow, educated at Carlisle and married to Red Wing.

Following the above information that Kelly Brown on Nitrateville supplied and what I confirmed in research, it seems J. Younger Johnson was born either April 1, 1873 or 1876 in Dakota City to a Charles Green Rainbow, who was a policeman. Charles Green Rainbow is on the rolls of the Winnebago tribe of the June 30, 1930 Census of the Winnebago Indians, taken by C.D. Munro. It also states Mr. Green Rainbow was married to No-chin-win-kaw. He died in 1926. There is no mention of sons but the earliest census for Green Rainbow (born in 1850) was in 1891 and he could have left by then. Youngdeer is not a typical Winnebago name and claims of Carlisle have not been proven. But I had a two-minute phone message from the Winnebago Tribe historian David Smith in September 2008 that stated that James Youngdeer was indeed a Winnebago and I do not have the names of any other Winnebago tribal historian disputing this.

That's where the trail ends and it could be false, but again, unless we come up with something that gives better information, I stand by my research and my methodology. As for claims against him being stated in a book so it must be true,

"You can't expect to wield supreme power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!"