NitrateVille.com

When I did the Enchantment project, LOC created HD files but could only do HD at talkie speed (this may have changed over the last couple years). I already had a score by Donald Sosin, which was timed for a festival showing. If memory serves, the HD files were something around 28 0r 29 fps while the score was timed for 24 fps. Donald couldn't remember if the reel changes were in the print shown at the festival. After editing out the reel changes that were still in the 3 massive HD files, the trick was to match the existing video to the existing audio while maintaining the integrity of both and not having to cut here and there. After much experimenting, Joe Gardner was able to slow down the LOC print to something like 23 fps to match the music. In some music scores, a few seconds probably doesn't make much difference, but in a score tied to specific actions in the film a few seconds can throw it all out of sync.

I wonder about the copyright for music that is snipped here and there to fit a new video print? And then not giving screen credit? Seems like a dangerous course of action for TCM.

drednm wrote:When I did the Enchantment project, LOC created HD files but could only do HD at talkie speed (this may have changed over the last couple years). I already had a score by Donald Sosin, which was timed for a festival showing. If memory serves, the HD files were something around 28 0r 29 fps while the score was timed for 24 fps....

Right then & there, I'd have given up!

And to make things more confusing, the cue sheets were created by music publishing companies, and published by the film exchanges, not the film makers. Sometimes the film-makers may have had input into what the film rate indicated on the cue sheet should be, other times it's not clear that they did. Like the music, film speed was under the complete control of the theater anyway for practical reasons. I've seen conductor's music desks with a dial installed that communicates with the booth, so that the conductor could signal film speed changes during the film at his personal whim.

Anyone who says that they know what speed a silent film was projected at, should indicate which theater out of the tens of thousands of theaters that particular fact applies to. As to modern choices, as David says, the one writing the check gets final say. Comedy should be projected fast enough to be funny, and also slow enough to be funny. Dramas should be projected fast enough to not be boring, and slow enough not to be silly.

One more thing to consider in regard to undercranking on a particular shot or scene: exposure. If the lighting is too low, one can correct the exposure by slowing down the frame rate and increasing the exposure time for each frame. One tends to see this in early newsreel footage where much of the lighting was "available light" only. I wouldn't be surprised if this would come into play in features and shorts in the situations where the lighting resources were stretched beyond normal limits. In that scenario, you'd tend to see it in very wide shots inside stages or at night. In a comedy you'd let it play fast, in a drama the music cue sheet would indicate projection speed.

Martin

Whatever one feels about the artistic qualities of silent vs. talking pictures, it must be acknowledged that the coming of synchronized sound imposed order on this chaos of differing ideas about "best" projection speeds; I'll bet every projectionist breathed a sigh of relief. (Had an uncle, long since dead, who worked in that capacity most of his life; what a pity I never discussed the subject with him.)

>Anyone who says that they know what speed a silent film was projected at, should indicate which theater out of the tens of thousands of theaters that particular fact applies to ... Comedy should be projected fast enough to be funny, and also slow enough to be funny. Dramas should be projected fast enough to not be boring, and slow enough not to be silly.<

Refreshing common sense on both points, Rodney.

Salut,
-Craig

the proper speed is determined by the way it looks. so there is really no debate. 24fps is too fast obviously. the music is 2nd in importance and mostly is bad. if a new silent film swine gets ahold of a film then probably it will be 24fps with bad muzak. definitely.
once you got this down pat in your mind stop buying blu rays. youre just turning yourself into the sucker they want you to be.

the banksters - yes those who invented the "bail-IN" are dictating terms of silent pix presentation. yes the same people who was the enemy of Fairbanks. Murnau Inc. has to clear its business thru bankster authority. dont waste money on this. plz

Again my response is !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

SPIONE has been presented by Friedrich Wilhelm Murnau Stiftung at 143 min.
50 min. longer than previously issued.
[[[ meaning SPIONE was butchered by 50 min. after its release. It was on Kino vhs at 88 min. ]]]

SPIONE is a 3 hour movie. Lang knowing it was the banksters who ordered the confiscation & destruction of his masterpiece Metropolis, decided to make a movie about BANKSTERS!

To reveal the secrets of how they operate as criminals.

Here's a secret: Banksters decided that all British dvds have a 5% speedup. Well ain't that a coincidence!

An image on screen is interpreted by the viewer by how long it remains in front of the eye. The eye scrutinizes the image and draws information from it for the brain to make sense of. By quickening the time the effect is for the eye to wear out and the information to bypass it. That is why its so important for the banksters to have control over it. Once you know this you can understand the motives and realize that it is not supportable to buy discs that have the motive attached to them.
Virtually all tv shows are sped up. You can barely keep up with the rapidity. Oh well we need to be thankful the banksters allow us to live.

Rodney wrote:Anyone who says that they know what speed a silent film was projected at, should indicate which theater out of the tens of thousands of theaters that particular fact applies to. As to modern choices, as David says, the one writing the check gets final say. Comedy should be projected fast enough to be funny, and also slow enough to be funny. Dramas should be projected fast enough to not be boring, and slow enough not to be silly.

Personally, I would most want to know what speed the makers of the film intended, particularly the director.

Ben Model's video comparing fast and natural speed clips seems very convincing about the original intentions for projection speed of certain comedies, but it is more difficult to see how this could be inferred for dramas.

Rodney wrote:

entredeuxguerres wrote:

Mitch Farish wrote:..."The tango scene in Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse is woefully undercranked compared to the rest of the film, and benefits greatly from a speed change."

What is meant by "woefully" (if that's not a misprint)? I just watched this marvelous scene (from the print shown on TCM), & it seems perfectly & wonderfully natural, not under-cranked at all; one of the greatest achievements of the silent era, as well as one of the most affecting memorials of the Great War.

Then it's clear that they slowed the tango scene down on the print you saw on TCM. They took care of it for you. If it was the beautiful Carl Dacis score you heard, I can guarantee that it was slowed down.

It was. (Just watched it all again--which is, always, for me, a wrenching experience.) Except that, not "beautiful," but "magnificent" is the adjective I'd prefer to use. The end credits refer to a piece by Liszt as the inspiration for the "Apocalypse theme," but to me the most memorable music is the tango theme, played (it sounds to me) by twin violins, and repeated several times later with undiminished effect.

I tried hard to pay attention to projection speed, but the beauty & emotional power of the cinematography made it difficult to concentrate on that aspect. Only times I noticed a slightly unnatural acceleration to movement were in the scenes of troops marching & civilians fleeing; otherwise, all movement seemed so perfectly natural that it's hard to believe it exceeded 18-20fps; however, I don't entirely trust my own judgment, because my absorption in the drama was so complete.

I wonder what those whose deep-seated enmity to the "mystery" of faith (to borrow the language of the Mass) must make of the symbolic "Redeemer" in this picture? Laughter, scorn, disgust?

SPIONE pt. 2

If you look closely you will see many titles removed and not replaced. If you are restoring a movie as great as SPIONE it is rather careless to do this. Lang put the titles in there to:
1. give the audience information
2. give the audience time to comprehend the situation.

MURNAU INC. overruled Lang [Again?]

Friedrich Wilhelm Murnau Inc. deliberately removed the titles because THEY THOUGHT they were unneeded. But what about the jumpcut following each? PDS (purty damn stupid)
NEXT - more stupidity

When MURNAU INC. sped up SPIONE to 24FPS they neglected to increase the amount of time allowed to read the many subtitles on Newspapers, Telegrams, Letters of which SPIONE has alot of. These are placed in there to give the audience information. MURNAU INC. left them sped up so the subtitles disappear before they can be read totally --- a real low blow and PDS. This is proof the film was meant to be shown slower than 24FPS.

Restoring a movie means getting it exact as if it was just finished. And following The authors wishes to a T.
If you look closely at SPIONE you will see so many "Mistakes" its pitiful.

music. i dont listen to music on silent films. i just got out of the habit. in all due respect to composers on here, when a fool decides to project a film at 24fps he has damaged the movie for the viewer. so he hires a composer to smoothe over that and make a connection to the viewer.
when brownlow used carl davis music, he did so while slowing the film as proper. well he did that to SHOW EVERYBODY that silent films need to be slowed down THEN add music. Once the swine gained control and did what they do, I decided to do without music.
I have the thames INTOLERENCE and carl davis did the music so good so I want to give credit where its due. Brownlow gave so much to the silent film. He deserves all the credit for its revival and deserves our respect. I own every movie ever made in every language. I know that sounds silly from that ad. But I do own any movie worth seeing. So I 'm not just blabbing out my butt. I saw every silent film shown in the 70's and 80's in museums, archives, etc.
musicians - dont take the jobs. tell them stop speeding up films and ruining them. don't go along with it. take your names off pix.

So, now we are worried about drama being too fast?

Could I please bottle some of that "too fast" to sprinkle on some of my discs......notably the Keystone Chaplin set that came out a few years back.
I have a two-reel Chaplin slapstick short that runs 27 minutes!
I love good silent film music, but I can't watch that set with the music. It is only palatable to watch sped-up on my DVD player, which negates the music. If I don't, characters float unnaturally as if it is an episode of Bewitched or IDream of Jeannie.

So can we bottle some of that "too fast" so I can sprinkle it on the woefully slow?

>So, now we are worried about drama being too fast?<

It works for you, to see characters in serious dramas, at sometimes tragic moments, jitter, shake, and race about like they had St. Vitus' Dance?

Balance in all things!

Agnes wrote:So, now we are worried about drama being too fast?

Could I please bottle some of that "too fast" to sprinkle on some of my discs......notably the Keystone Chaplin set that came out a few years back.
I have a two-reel Chaplin slapstick short that runs 27 minutes!
I love good silent film music, but I can't watch that set with the music. It is only palatable to watch sped-up on my DVD player, which negates the music. If I don't, characters float unnaturally as if it is an episode of Bewitched or IDream of Jeannie.

I've seen that set. I worked on that set. And you're wrong. The comedies are appropriately undercranked, so the motion is (as intended) faster than it was shot, but not so fast that it becomes impossible to tell what's going on. The selection of speeds was fine.

When comedies are run too fast, you lose half the jokes and all of the facial expressions.

SPIONE Pt.3

I am hoping to create interest in SPIONE but this post is a sort of fan letter.

In one scene where no.326 chases the girl who ditched him to a flat... across the street on the wall are Metropolis posters.

There are 4 suicides & 4 murders in SPIONE. Well that is odd because there have been like 17 unsolved bankster deaths the last year or so.

Jellusic shoots himself, Morrier chews a cyanide capsule, Matsumoto commits harikiri and Haghi as NeMo the clown shoots himself.
The messenger who was reporting to HQ about Haghi was shot before he could utter his name. The 3 Japanese couriers were killed. + an entire book of photos of dead agents most likely all killed by Haghi

Weather Control -- we know now at least here in BA how cold weather can sit without moving for a week reaching below freezing. Now that is control!

But in SPIONE when Matsumoto leaves the company of 326 & shakes hands Immediately raindrops fall on his hand and then a massive rainstorm is set in motion so that the girl agent has a proper atmosphere to con him.
Haghi must have supernatural powers or is mobbed up to aliens who are the true rulers of the banksters and planet earth.
We know they are now. Maybe that is why 50 min. was removed making SPIONE unwatchable.

When the 88min.version was all that was out there, I was able to acquire a full length French version from cbc in quebec.
its 24fps and 137 min. WITH NO MUSIC. but its been tampered with. anyway i had the full length version but all the letters, telegrams newspapers were in french which i know but its hard to translate unless you freeze it.

HAGHI is a symbol of the one world govt control by banksters and Lang was way ahead of his time knowing that and portraying it in a movie that could be seen by millions of people worldwide. WHICH IS WHY IT WAS CUT.
KINO hired Donald Sosin to put muzak on SPIONE. I refuse to listen to it. I don't care how good the muzak is. its a sellout.

Real_McCoy wrote: KINO hired Donald Sosin to put muzak on SPIONE. I refuse to listen to it. I don't care how good the muzak is. its a sellout.

I find your deeply ignorant conspiracy rants about the silent-film-industrial-complex tiring, and they are insulting to a lot of people who do very good work for a noble and often under-appreciated cause. But this bit of criticizing a musical score that you refuse to listen to is actually funny, in a Tea-Party, righteously-ignorant, "keep your government hands off my Medicare" sort of way.

SPIONE

Technical Specs
Runtime: 178 min | 144 min (DVD edition) | 144 min (DVD edition)
Sound Mix: Silent

RUNTIME: 178 min. is 3 HOURS. So much for a rant.

SOUND MIX : SILENT fine with me. now I dont need to sit thru amateur nite muzak

Rodney if you only knew how wrong you are about me. But go ahead and fire away. Everything I say is true. Or I would not get up here.
I just saw a John Wayne movie from 1935 with synthesizer muzak on it. guess there's jobs for you blokes on sound pix too.

I think that Mr. McCoy has even criticised the original score composed for the film "Metropolis" commissioned by Fritz Lang and composed by Gottfried Huppertz. I think that after this comment I decided to just "switch off".

Real_McCoy wrote:Everything I say is true. Or I would not get up here.

In the face of that impeccable logic, I'm signing off.

Most times when I look at a silent picture, everything "appears" normal. Maybe I am easily pleased? The only thing I notice is that some scenes in the picture may be speeded up and I have always put that down to a cameraman having a sore arm or something along those lines. Or it may have been done for some sort of effect. If I can give an example. In the "Phantom of the Opera" when Erick is driving the barouche, this all appears to have been speeded up here and there? As to the comedies, I have seen some of these that appear a lot slower than when I originally saw them. Perhaps in my youth they would have been projected at sound speed - so seeing them now with a "correction" is me just not being used to them that way.

here is a totally unbiased comment on the muzak on SPIONE (this comment was not written by me)


"I was watching the HD release on TCM on TV, but the thematic background music that changes depending in the scene is absolutely atrocious. It sounds like it is definitely done on a synthesizer.
Some effects are ok. The solo piano is ok. But everything else sounds like worse than worst early 90s TV show music. Has anyone else noticed it?

Question is this; if you own a blu Ray of this film, maybe a DVD, do you know if there is an alternative soundtrack with better music or something alternative like narration or commentary ?"

NO YOU ARE STUCK WITH MUZAK.

Real_McCoy wrote:...It sounds like it is definitely done on a synthesizer....

Well, it could be worse: an organ.

Donald Binks wrote:I think that Mr. McCoy has even criticised the original score composed for the film "Metropolis" commissioned by Fritz Lang and composed by Gottfried Huppertz. I think that after this comment I decided to just "switch off".

Since you did respond to my opinion, Donald I will reply. With all due respect....

1st. How do you know that is Huppertz muzak? Can you prove it?

2nd. If it is Huppertz then Most Likely it was made for a 200 min.Metropolis. The movie was confiscated and destroyed. So there is a break in the continuity. ..... for only 80 years....

And 80 years later - it has been Most Likely chiseled onto a 144min. version Which before that was a 120 min. version.
Now I don't want to knit pick but the picture put out by MURNAU INC. is a disgrace and pardon me if I have a problem with the manipulation of that "whoevers" muzak so it can be sold to suckers who dont know better.
But if you LIKE it and dont mind the shoe-horning TWICE well you are free to do so. I happen to object to the whole sorry situation. Its pure garbage. The muzak is as inappropriate as it gets. But you are free to have a differing opinion. However my opinion is valid.

Real_McCoy wrote:

Donald Binks wrote:I think that Mr. McCoy has even criticised the original score composed for the film "Metropolis" commissioned by Fritz Lang and composed by Gottfried Huppertz. I think that after this comment I decided to just "switch off".

Since you did respond to my opinion, Donald I will reply. With all due respect....

1st. How do you know that is Huppertz muzak? Can you prove it?

2nd. If it is Huppertz then Most Likely it was made for a 200 min.Metropolis. The movie was confiscated and destroyed. So there is a break in the continuity. ..... for only 80 years....

And 80 years later - it has been Most Likely chiseled onto a 144min. version Which before that was a 120 min. version.
Now I don't want to knit pick but the picture put out by MURNAU INC. is a disgrace and pardon me if I have a problem with the manipulation of that "whoevers" muzak so it can be sold to suckers who dont know better.
But if you LIKE it and dont mind the shoe-horning TWICE well you are free to do so. I happen to object to the whole sorry situation. Its pure garbage. The muzak is as inappropriate as it gets. But you are free to have a differing opinion. However my opinion is valid.

Quite frankly Mr. McCoy, I haven't the slightest idea of what you are on about?

A print I have of "Metropolis" has the original Huppertz score played by the full orchestra. There are a number of versions of the film out there and it is a matter of choice as to which DVD you go out and purchase, surely. You may even choose to see that George Moroder one that came out in the 1980's.

I can also remind you that the Murneau Stiftung is the organisation that has gone out of its way to try an piece together the "Metropolis" film. The version we now have is probably the most intact incarnation of it that we have ever had.

Perhaps Mr. McCoy, if you feel so strongly about certain issues as you do, you will make a sizable donation to a film restoration service so that a print that is in keeping with your requirements may be forthcoming? You will of course also commission a composer of your choice to write a full orchestral score that you might find suitable as well?

entredeuxguerres wrote:

Real_McCoy wrote:...It sounds like it is definitely done on a synthesizer....

Well, it could be worse: an organ.

You have obviously never had the experience of being a in a cinema palace listening to an accompaniment provided on a huge cinema/theatre organ played by someone who knows their way around the instrument. It can be thrilling. I saw "The General" one time ins such an environment and it was fantastic how the mighty Wurlitzer could make the sounds of the railway engine and all that sort of thing, sound so real.

In the early days of cinema orchestras where an organ was also in situ, the organ playing with the orchestra could make a 25 piece orchestra sound as though there were 75 musicians in the pit!

(Just another opinion of course )

Donald Binks wrote:...A print I have of "Metropolis" has the original Huppertz score played by the full orchestra. There are a number of versions of the film out there and it is a matter of choice as to which DVD you go out and purchase, surely. You may even choose to see that George Moroder one that came out in the 1980's....

Just checked Kino's site, where are listed both the 2002 ed. @ 124' and the 2010 ed. @ 148'; the latter with Huppertz' score played by full orchestra, but no description of instrumentation of 2002 ed.

Can't figure out which ed. TCM last broadcast, which is the only version I have; description says 1995 Dolby restoration, but the date 2001 also appears.

Since projection speed determines running time, a more valid measure of the lengths of the various eds. would be film's length in feet.

Donald Binks wrote: You have obviously never had the experience of being a in a cinema palace listening to an accompaniment provided on a huge cinema/theatre organ played by someone who knows their way around the instrument. It can be thrilling...

But aren't we talking about home video? Living rooms vs. cinema palaces?

But even in the cinema palace, I'd prefer, if possible, the full orchestra, not excluding the organ as a component thereof.

entredeuxguerres wrote:

Donald Binks wrote: You have obviously never had the experience of being a in a cinema palace listening to an accompaniment provided on a huge cinema/theatre organ played by someone who knows their way around the instrument. It can be thrilling...

But aren't we talking about home video? Living rooms vs. cinema palaces?

But even in the cinema palace, I'd prefer, if possible, the full orchestra, not excluding the organ as a component thereof.

Well, to a measure I can agree with you there as some of the organ scores of Gaylord Carter on DVD do not do him justice as they sound quite awful in comparison to the real thing. All I can think of is that they were recorded many years ago with a series of wet blankets set up between the organ chambers and the microphone.

Granted also, a full orchestra playing for a film is wonderful and grand. I have had this succinct pleasure a number of times in Melbourne and treasure the memory of each occasion. However it is an awfully expensive proposition to carry off these days - and can one really afford the ticket prices commensurate with the recouping of costs?