Napoleon discussion > piracy/DVD market

[Mitch Farish]

Sure, we all have a right to be a little disappointed when we think certain releases, with just a tiny bit more effort and quality control, could have been so much better...

And there lies the problem with THE BIG PARADE Blu. The image quality is astoundingly beautiful, but since they decided to slow the film down a bit, they should have released it in 1080i and avoided the motion artifacts. A little more quality control and a glance from people who know what they're looking for and silent Blu releases would be much better across the board. The Blu of WINGS, however, is absolute perfection, and should have been purchased by anyone who calls themselves a silent film fan. One of the finest discs I own.

WINGS was released in 1080p.

[ColemanShedman]

If I understand correctly, motion judder isn't a problem if the frame rate is a multiple of 3 or 4. So 15, 16, 18, 20, or even 21fps films should not be a problem. Also, isn't motion judder a problem on ANY 60hz television, as opposed to 120hz tvs, which can handle 24fps or 30fps equally well? The majority of tvs are still 60hz, regardless of manufactures "Trumotion" or "MotionFlow" rates. Do we know the frame rates (or is there a way to find out) for the releases mentioned earlier? It seems to me producers of this content would know this and would not master a film at, say, 22fps just for that reason.

[Mitch Farish]

I don't want to get into what does or doesn't cause judder. We've beaten that horse to death. I don't know enough to make the broad pronouncement that 1080i is always better. But I do think we should have faith enough to believe that the producers of these discs know more than we do. I can live with judgment calls that I disagree with (I bought Variete in spite of the Tiger Lillies' terrible score) but I don't think companies that take on these projects for very little return can live with people saying they're holding out for something better. Fewer sales mean fewer films coming out. Streaming will be an answer only if it can produce the same HD quality you can get now on disc, and when you can buy your own digital copy.

[Nick_M]

Once you've seen it, it's noticeable even as low as 18fps (I don't think I've seen a 16fps disc...). What's different is that, at 22.5fps (The Black Pirate) and 22 (The Vampires) it's always noticeable, but at 20 (Siegfried) and 18 (Caligari) you'll sporadically but frequently see it, and then there are the releases with variable frame rates. The pulldown needs to be as even as possible, which is better achieved at 1080i60 than at 1080p24. At this point, I'm convinced that for a 24fps container to work, the frame rate needs to be a divisor of 24. It's simply too slow to allow for much flexibility.

[bigshot]

I have an Oppo BDP-103, and because I run a very long HDMI to my projector mounted on the ceiling, I have handshake issues when I run progressive. I've found an interlace setting for my player and projector that plays all NTSC, 24 fps, 30fps, PAL perfectly, AND it improves the playback of silents with judder. The only thing I see judder in with my system is the lapping water in Black Pirate. The rest look fine. If you are sensitive to judder, you might investigate interlacing from your player.

[Nick_M]

I got you beat there. My main HDTV is a CRT that maxes out at 1080i.

[Changsham]

I own THE BIG PARADE and WINGS on laser disc. When both came out they were the best available for home viewing and still hold up well. Upgrading was an easy decision for me though I had watched each film numerous times. The improvement is worth it. I don't expect perfection but greatful that someone made the effort to present them as best as they could given the films limited market. I am a big supporter of those who make it their business to make these films accessible. When a new title I want appears and also some that don't I really want I don't bother waiting for the price to go down. Happy to pay full price straight away. Not going to take the bread out of the mouths of those that did all the hard work.

[WaverBoy]

Sure, we all have a right to be a little disappointed when we think certain releases, with just a tiny bit more effort and quality control, could have been so much better...

And there lies the problem with THE BIG PARADE Blu. The image quality is astoundingly beautiful, but since they decided to slow the film down a bit, they should have released it in 1080i and avoided the motion artifacts. A little more quality control and a glance from people who know what they're looking for and silent Blu releases would be much better across the board. The Blu of WINGS, however, is absolute perfection, and should have been purchased by anyone who calls themselves a silent film fan. One of the finest discs I own.

WINGS was released in 1080p.

I'm aware of that; WINGS is also running at 24fps, so there's no motion problems.

[Great Hierophant]

Once you've seen it, it's noticeable even as low as 18fps (I don't think I've seen a 16fps disc...). What's different is that, at 22.5fps (The Black Pirate) and 22 (The Vampires) it's always noticeable, but at 20 (Siegfried) and 18 (Caligari) you'll sporadically but frequently see it, and then there are the releases with variable frame rates. The pulldown needs to be as even as possible, which is better achieved at 1080i60 than at 1080p24. At this point, I'm convinced that for a 24fps container to work, the frame rate needs to be a divisor of 24. It's simply too slow to allow for much flexibility.

24 can be divided by 12, 8, 6, 4, 3 and 2. None of those frame rates are really appropriate for most motion pictures. However, 16, 18 and 20 seem to produce the least amount of judder. Perhaps films that are supposed to be shown at 22 or 26fps should be sped up or slowed down to 24fps as the best compromise with the currently available technology and the conventional wisdom that 1080p is always better than 1080i.

[ColemanShedman]

Again, isn't your tv refresh rate (60hz, 120hz, or 240hz) also important? If you have a 60hz tv (most people still do), there will always be problems with 24fps content. It shouldn't be an issue with 120hz tvs, or 240hz tvs (although 240 is a bit of overkill unless you watch a lot of 3D content).

[Great Hierophant]

Again, isn't your tv refresh rate (60hz, 120hz, or 240hz) also important? If you have a 60hz tv (most people still do), there will always be problems with 24fps content. It shouldn't be an issue with 120hz tvs, or 240hz tvs (although 240 is a bit of overkill unless you watch a lot of 3D content).

I believe that some TVs used to advertise 72Hz, which is a common computer monitor refresh rate, to avoid such issues. Otherwise, I would suggest that 60Hz-only TVs use NTSC-style 3:2 pulldown with interlacing which is what people have had to deal with for decades.

[ColemanShedman]

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a new interlaced tv these days. It can accept the signal but will de-interlace it regardless. Anyway, it is my understanding that anyone who watches a lot of blu-rays at 24p would do well to get a 120hz tv and I guess I'm wondering if what a lot of issues people are complaining about have less to do with 1080p or 1080i than with the refresh rate of their tvs (60hz, which doesn't play well with 24p signals and which most people still have, or 120hz)? I admit I'm not an expert but I guess I don't understand why a 1080i disc would be better if your tv and/or player is going to de-interlace the signal before you see it anyway.

[jcp7701]

Who are you talking about? Nobody here is demanding perfection or instant gratification.

Right, no one on here ever pisses and moans about a release, or asks questions about the most picayune details before spending their precious $20 or whatever paltry sum it is on something that hasn't been available for decades. No, never.

[SilentsPlease]

Silent films on DVD aren't dying... DVD as a format is. It's being replaced by streaming. Bootlegging has nothing to do with it. The variety and quality of silent films available on home video today is the best it's ever been. It just isn't on DVD any more- it's on Netflix, Amazon Prime and Warner Archive Instant.

But streaming video seldom provides the latest, often much-improved transfers of silents. Many old transfers are still being used for streaming at Amazon, Vudu, Netflix, etc. The newest transfers are often only available on DVDs and BDs. And as we know, selling these new transfers via DVD/BD is CRUCIAL to the economics of film preservation and restoration. And as long as physical discs exist, piracy will always be in play, and disc sales will always be affected. So I don't know why people like you are still refusing to admit it. The horse is long DEAD, to the point that it has become an unrecognizable carcass, so stop beating it. Record shows that you still have no counter-argument to my last post to you. And no argument usually means *lost* argument, whether you like to admit or not. So please stop being disingenuous to yourself and admit that piracy DOES in fact crush small video companies, many of which release silent films.