Edison Kinetoscopic Record of a Sneeze and other questions

[MattBarry]

I've been meaning to ask everyone about something that I've heard repeated from several sources but don't quite understand.

The 1894 "Edison Kinetoscopic Record of a Sneeze" is often cited as the earliest surviving motion picture. I understand that this rules out earlier tests or experiments which may no longer exist, or that only exist in fragmentary form and can't be played back.

However, don't "Blacksmithing Scene" and "The Barbershop", both from 1893, qualify as earlier "surviving motion pictures"?

In "A Short History of the Movies", Gerald Mast writes that there are no films in existence that pre-date "The Sneeze". I'm not entirely clear what criteria is being used here to define it that way, because we could certainly point to LePrince's 1888 paper roll fragments, an 1890 test by William Friese-Greene (which I have only read about but never seen), or even Edison's own "Monkeyshines" or "Dickson Greeting" tests, as evidence of earlier films. Even ruling these out, if only because they exist in fragmentary form and were intended to be shown on cylinders, I still don't understand why "Blacksmithing Scene" or "The Barbershop" wouldn't qualify.

Most recently, the same claim was made on the Kino/MOMA "Edison: Invention of the Movies" set. Obviously, their information is accurate, although I don't quite understand just why it is.

I suspect my misunderstanding on this point is due to a distinction being made that I'm unaware of. If anyone could clarify why "The Sneeze" is considered the earliest, surviving motion picture, I'd be very interested in hearing the details.

A few more questions:

Along the same lines, I've read the account of the "Dickson Greeting" being shown to the Federation of Womens' Clubs in 1891. Does anyone know what format it was shown own (was the Kinetoscope already in existence then?) How closely the version of that film on the Kino/MOMA set correspond with what was shown in 1891? Similarly, when "Blacksmithing Scene" and "Barbershop" were shown at the Brooklyn Institute of Arts and Sciences in 1893, were they also shown on the Kinetoscope, or was there another machine being used during that time?

Finally, also on the Kino/MOMA DVD, there is a photograph of frames from the "Sandow" film with the handwritten caption "taken at the Edison studio in 1890-1891". The film was almost certainly shot in 1894, so does anyone know why the 1890-91 date appears on that photo? I've been told that in "The Edison Motion Picture Myth", which I have not yet read, Gordon Hendricks supposedly makes a strong case that there were not, in fact, any films made by Edison prior to 1894. I realize that this could be entirely inaccurate, as I have not read that book yet, but for anyone who has read it, is there any validity to that claim?

[boblipton]

There is also the Lumiere "Prince des Galles" the August LePrince Roundhay Garden strips and some cartoons by Reynard. But am I supposed to believe my eyes when Gerald Mast has written otherwise?

Bob

[MattBarry]

There is also the Lumiere "Prince des Galles" the August LePrince Roundhay Garden strips and some cartoons by Reynard. But am I supposed to believe my eyes when Gerald Mast has written otherwise?

Bob

This is what I find so odd about the claim for "The Sneeze" being the oldest surviving film. There's lots of examples of earlier films that we can still watch. It's not just Mast making this claim, either, but lots of sources.

[boblipton]

Well, some of these were not done as films originally -- that is, items meant to be projected on a screen. Several were Mutoscopes or peepshow items.

And then, of course, there's the tendency of experts to prove their assertions by quoting other experts.

Bob

[silentfilm]

The Sneeze, officially known as Edison Kinetoscopic Record of a Sneeze, January 7, 1894 was definitely the first film ever copyrighted. It lasts a whole 45 frames.

The LePrince films have motion, but are even shorter than a second. They were also never shown in peepshows or projected, because LePrince could only figure out how to make the camera work.

Biograph shot Sandow in December, 1896, but I'm not sure when Edison did. The Edison Sandow film was not copyrighted.

I'd look in a couple of books, but they are mostly boxed up right now. I kept my paper print catalog out though.

[Jim Gettys]

If the late Gerald Mast actually claimed that The Sneeze is the earliest surviving motion picture, then he was simply wrong and (after 10 editions) should be thoroughly embarrassed, as should anyone who agrees with him.

The Kino/MOMA Edison set does NOT make this claim. The talking heads state that The Sneeze is the earliest Edison film in the *LOC* collection, and that the earlier films are in the MOMA collection, copied from high-quality originals owned by The Henry Ford (Museum) in Dearborn, Michigan.

The best book, by far, that covers the creation of the earliest films is the recently-published "The Man Who Made Movies: W.K.L. Dickson" by Paul Spehr. Spehr is retired from the LOC, and he really knows his stuff.

--- Jim Gettys

[Jim Gettys]

Dickson/Edison first filmed Sandow in the Black Maria studio on March 6, 1894. The 1890/91 claim was made by Dickson in 1932. Either his memory was off, or he was lying, which is not unlikely.

--- Jim Gettys

[urbanora]

Most of these questions were asked - and answered - in an earlier Nitrateville thread, viewtopic.php?p=4844.

The 1891 Dickson Greeting was shown via an experimental version of the Kinetoscope, which from the illustration reproduced in Charles Musser's "The Emergence of Cinema" (p. 69) was the basic mechanism on a table without the box that would later contain it. The film itself was 3/4" in width.

As said before, Musser's "Edison Motion Pictures, 1890-1900" is the essential source, and Gerald Mast shouldn't be used as a reference source at all.