Question about assembling new versions of films

sc1957 · Post by **sc1957** » Sat May 21, 2011 11:05 am

The Keaton shorts interview prompts me to ask this question, though I felt I should put it in a separate topic.

Recent DVD releases of Chaplin, Keaton, or whoever are inevitably accompanied by comments of "Why didn't they include those X seconds from scene Y? I saw them last year at festival Z. They looked better than this. Surely they could have found them somewhere?" (Note: I'm aware of the Chaplin restrictions, and don't want to get sidetracked by that here.)

My involvement with film is simply that I watch the end product on DVD or Blu-Ray, and I'm happy to see what I can. But I'm aware that there's a group of people who collect actual film, outside of the various official film archives. And many of those people know each other, and presumably trade/sell items back and forth.

So... a company decides to release a new version of a film. They ask the film archives what footage they have. They may ask certain private collectors. How far should (or can) a company go to let the world of collectors know that they're preparing something new, just in case someone out there has some missing footage?

Jack Theakston · Post by **Jack Theakston** » Sat May 21, 2011 11:14 am

I think the outreach should be far and wide, and it usually is. However, there are always archives and collectors who value the footage they have higher than the production company may have a budget for, or perhaps they are uncooperative in one way or another. In both instances, the producer must decide whether the footage is critical enough to press forward with the project or not.

Post by **Mike Gebert** » Sat May 21, 2011 11:16 am

Some of these big projects are certainly widely known in the world of collectors, and involve asking lots of people what they have. If you look at the credits at the end of Tillie's Punctured Romance, for instance, there are probably two dozen or more names of collectors and archives, several of whom are active here.

I think there are several ways footage doesn't end up in a final product. One is, no one knows it exists. But others include 1) it's a variation of something else that exists and is being used, 2) it's a fragment so separate from the other material that there's no easy way to incorporate it and maintain a watchable continuity, 3) its quality is so much lower than what else exists that it would be jarring in a restoration intended for watchability and pleasure rather than completeness, 4) its rarity and/or quality is overstated by the collector, 5) time and money simply didn't allow it, etc.

I'd love to hear more specifics from the producers involved, but I think on a practical level, these are the issues that they mostly face with this kind of material.

Gagman 66 · Post by **Gagman 66** » Sat May 21, 2011 12:45 pm

These Ad's for ELLA CINDERS clearly show that Colleen Moore wore a dazzling fringe outfit with headdress, and spire, someplace in the missing two reels of the film. I had seen stills of Colleen in the costume before, but was not aware they were from ELLA CINDERS. There is also the still with Colleen in the Dog House, which is not a part of the surviving Kodascope prints. E C was originally a 7 reeler. Not 5. I'm still hoping that at least one archive has got those missing two-reels of footage. Or at least portions of them. I'd definitely buy a restored complete version from Flicker Alley. Obviously some previously absent footage was recently restored to BLACK OXEN. That was a surprise.

DANCING MOTHERS is missing gobs of footage. It was originally 9 reels long. If only the 5 reel Kodascope survives, no wonder the movie is so difficult to follow. Much of Clara Bow's performance that made her a top Star at Paramount is no longer there. ARE PARENTS PEOPLE? is missing three reels in the Kodascope print, but it seems less truncated than DANCING MOTHERS and allot easier to follow. Don't get me wrong. I am thankful for the Kodascope Libraries prints, as with out them these films would be completely lost.Nevertheless, one can't help but be curious about all that has been lost from these movies.

missdupont · Post by **missdupont** » Sat May 21, 2011 2:01 pm

You can't always believe trailers and publicity photos from films, these often include images and scenes cut from the feature. It's still happening today in many trailers. Executives or talent falls in love with these scenes and don't want them cut out of the trailers/TV spots/promos.

Gagman 66 · Post by **Gagman 66** » Sat May 21, 2011 2:44 pm

missdupont,

Doesn't really matter. There are still two reels missing from ELLA CINDERS. That's quite a bit. The footage of Colleen in that costume might have been included, and it may not have in the original release. All I am interested in is that someone cares enough to try to uncover those missing two reels. Or in the case of ARE PARENTS PEOPLE?, Three missing reels. DANCING MOTHERS a whopping four reels unaccounted for! I could use good quality stills of Colleen in that costume, because I don't have any.

Also I need Turn of the 20th Century English music for TWINKLETOES. Or at least some suggestions on songs to look for? Can't think of much of anything. Instrumentals are preferred over recordings with vocals. Can anyone help? Yeah, Colleen was Irish, but you can only use a melody like "The Irish Washer Woman" so many times.

dr.giraud · Post by **dr.giraud** » Sat May 21, 2011 5:43 pm

Gagman 66 wrote:
There are still two reels missing from ELLA CINDERS. That's quite a bit.

This is always worth remembering.

The shortened version of BEAU BRUMMELL contains the whole arc of Brummell's rise and fall, and it's moving--if you haven't seen the complete version, which is substantially more effective.

So while I love the surviving versions of DANCING MOTHERS and ELLA CINDERS, I can't help but wonder what's missing.

FrankFay · Post by **FrankFay** » Sat May 21, 2011 6:34 pm

Gagman, you really shoved Colleen More into this thread. I know she means a lot to you but we don't need to be constantly informed of that in every context.

Gagman 66 · Post by **Gagman 66** » Sat May 21, 2011 7:26 pm

Well, I also included Clara Bow and Betty Bronson. And for that matter Alice Joyce, and Florence Vidor. If I had an example of a still or Lobby-card illustrating a lost sequence from either DANCING MOTHERS or ARE PARENTS PEOPLE?, I would have posted it. Alas, I do not.

Post by **Christopher Jacobs** » Sat May 21, 2011 8:10 pm

Well, I think more people need to be concerned about the unfortunate neglect of the fine little Samuel Bischoff programmer A GYPSY ROMANCE (1926), a 6-reeler that seems only to exist in a rare 4-reel cutdown. This action-packed adventure melodrama was cutting-edge for its implicit (and unusually explicit) violence and sexually-tinged sadism. It was written by of all people Mary O'Hara (who much later became known for "My Friend Flicka," among others) and directed by her then-husband Helge Sture-Vasa. It stars Shannon Day, who appeared in DeMille's MANSLAUGHTER and AFFAIRS OF ANATOL as well as THE VANISHING AMERICAN. Her films should be much better known!! The male lead is Thur Fairfax, and other stars (not listed in the AFI 1920s catalog, which also omits the writing and directing credits) include character actors Jack Curtis, George Marion (in drag as an old gypsy woman!), and Clarence Geldert.

Does any 35mm material still survive on this film at all? Why is it not mentioned in the history books and never shown on the festival circuit?! (Well, at least except for my basement theatre 16mm screening next weekend!) Why is it not even on DVD?!! It's Public Domain, after all!! The world's archives should be searched for all the missing footage to restore this underappreciated genre gem to its former glory! And why are there no poster or ad artwork or production stills available on line? It should be on Blu-ray with alternate scores by Robert Israel, Carl Davis, Mont Alto, Phil Carli, and Ben Model! When is somebody going to restore and release this film! (or let it escape!).

--Christopher Jacobs
http://hpr1.com/film
http://www.und.edu/instruct/cjacobs
http://www.und.edu/instruct/cjacobs/Old ... BluRay.htm

CoffeeDan · Post by **CoffeeDan** » Sat May 21, 2011 10:54 pm

FrankFay wrote:Gagman, you really shoved Colleen More into this thread. I know she means a lot to you but we don't need to be constantly informed of that in every context.

At times, I think Jeff is the Mr. Dick of Nitrateville, his idee fixe being Colleen Moore rather than King Charles.

WaverBoy · Post by **WaverBoy** » Mon May 23, 2011 12:41 am

I'm afraid I had to look that reference up. I'm embarrassed to say I've never read any Dickens. I have been meaning to start, however.

As for Colleen, I know I could always use Moore.

FrankFay · Post by **FrankFay** » Mon May 23, 2011 3:32 am

WaverBoy wrote:I'm afraid I had to look that reference up. I'm embarrassed to say I've never read any Dickens. I have been meaning to start, however.

As for Colleen, I know I could always use Moore.

A bit off topic, but if you've never read Dickens I'd recommend Great Expectations. It's relatively close to modern taste in terms of plot and pace and it doesn't have any digressions.

Michael O'Regan · Post by **Michael O'Regan** » Mon May 23, 2011 5:50 am

FrankFay wrote:
WaverBoy wrote:I'm afraid I had to look that reference up. I'm embarrassed to say I've never read any Dickens. I have been meaning to start, however.

As for Colleen, I know I could always use Moore.
A bit off topic, but if you've never read Dickens I'd recommend Great Expectations. It's relatively close to modern taste in terms of plot and pace and it doesn't have any digressions.

Yes, I agree - or HARD TIMES.

sc1957 · Post by **sc1957** » Fri May 27, 2011 8:46 pm

Thanks for the informative replies, and, uh, the others. I'm glad that I pulled this question out of Mike's fine Bret Wood interview -- it's always interesting to see the direction a thread can take. Though I was watching Buster in his shorts just last night.

Micromegas · Post by **Micromegas** » Sat May 28, 2011 5:51 am

" Obviously some previously absent footage was recently restored to BLACK OXEN. That was a surprise. "

Can you tell us more?

Thanks,

Steve

Gagman 66 · Post by **Gagman 66** » Sun May 29, 2011 2:43 am

Micromegas,

It is all in the Eastman House Thread. Go to their Webpage and you can watch the entire film, or at least as much as survives On-Line. Unless The Russian Archive has additional footage, or the missing final reel?

Micromegas · Post by **Micromegas** » Sun May 29, 2011 9:13 am

Thanks, I've downloaded that Black Oxen footage from the GEH website, but is there anything new than the grey mkt DVDs lfoating around (haven't viewed it yet).

Steve

Gagman 66 · Post by **Gagman 66** » Sun May 29, 2011 10:12 am

I haven't really viewed it yet either. If you read the write-up on the film presented. it says the most complete version since 1924. The print quality is a vast improvement over what had been circulating previously. Haven't gotten past Corinne's poor Hairdo. Not what I am used to seeing her look like.