GLORYFYING THE AMERICAN GIRL (1929)

[Harlett O'Dowd]

Again, I don't get the point. Caruso, McCormack, Pinza, Melchior - to name but a few - all crossed over into "popular" music and culture. Good is good is good.

My only point would be that between then & now, times have changed, & standards for popular music have changed; surely that's not debatable, is it?

We tend to remember only the material that has stood the test of time. There was a lot of truly disposable music, especially pre-1925 or so. A great many of the songs written for early film musicals ("Tip Toe Through the Tulips," "I Love You So Much," most of the songs from THE GREAT GABBO etc.) were considered dumbed down and slumming because, well, they weren't of BROADWAY caliber.

I will happily concede this: There's a lot more sloppy writing nowadays than in the days of the great American songbook. Many a pearl was clutched when the Beatles invaded the US. And while "She Loves You" if far from the most sophisticated thing ever written, those Liverpool lads went on to write and perform pretty astonishing "pop" tunes.

And I would stack Annie Lennox against any female vocalist of the 20s and 30s and 40s. If she develops herself, I expect Lady Gaga could ultimately give Alice Faye a run for her money.

At the end of the day, good is good is good.

[odinthor]

Catholicity of taste is admirable up to a point, but that point has been left behind when it becomes so undiscriminating as to embrace everything. "Discriminating"...now there's a word, & an attitude about life, that's fallen upon hard times; prior to, I don't know, about the '60s, to be described as "discriminating" was regarded as an accolade; now it's become virtually a term of opprobrium.

So now we have the sad, immensely sad, spectacle of Renee Fleming endeavoring, as several of her recent public appearances suggest, to "prove" her lovely self as a pop singer; I hang my head in dismay.

Again, I don't get the point. Caruso, McCormack, Pinza, Melchior - to name but a few - all crossed over into "popular" music and culture. Good is good is good.

People characterize "like" and "dislike" differently. When one persons says that he likes early Verdi but doesn't like late Verdi, he could well mean that he'd give an "A" to early Verdi but an "F" to late Verdi; another who says the same thing could mean that he'd give an "A" to early Verdi but a "B" to late Verdi. To the latter person, both phases of Verdi might be "good," but he particularly likes early Verdi; the other person--a binary thinker!--hates everything he doesn't like. One person sees merit in things he doesn't personally like; one person sees no merit in things he doesn't personally like; and, just to make things more complex, it appears that there are also those who would give an "A" equally to everything. Discussions of this sort thus need to recognize and acknowledge the different ways in which people gauge their preferences.

In matters of taste, "discriminating" means, to me, the ability to peg something at a certain point on a scale, which is useful to those interested for one reason or another in the relative merit of things. If I state, "I like all Bergman," that's true in its way; but this would dismay a connoisseur, who would find such a declaration ham-handed and, indeed, undiscriminating; and, if pressed, I would admit that I like A Lesson in Love much better than Smiles of a Summer Night. Some people want or need a nuanced view, and so discuss on that plateau; others are satisfied with the plateau of a general view. Discussions can go astray if the parties involved are discussing from different plateaus.

[entredeuxguerres]

Again, unless I'm missing something, like, say, a Fleming cover of "All About That Bass,"
I don't get your point. Surely you don't consider Fleming's turn in THE MERRY WIDOW ... or singing the
US National Anthem ... or her opera parodies on LETTERMAN and SESAME STREET to be "sonic garbage."

Letterman & Sesame St. aren't on my viewing schedule. I thought the anthem gig banal, but not offensive...beyond the inane music of the song itself. What stuck in my craw was seeing on TV her duo with some soul-singer; don't ask for further specifics, as I didn't linger long watching it.

"Merry Widow"? I LOVE it! I cherish it! (Doubly so with Anna Moffo doing the singing.) But it's a gross misconstruction to place that, or any other operetta number, including Gilbert & Sullivan, into the category of contemporary popular music. Give me the name of the store where that, or anything like it, is being piped in over the PA system!

[entredeuxguerres]

...most of the songs from THE GREAT GABBO etc.) were considered dumbed down and slumming because, well, they weren't of BROADWAY caliber.

Can see their point about "Icky," which I always FF, but if they turned up their noses at "Every Now and Then"...show me the way to the slum.

[Donald Binks]

And I would stack Annie Lennox against any female vocalist of the 20s and 30s and 40s. If she develops herself, I expect Lady Gaga could ultimately give Alice Faye a run for her money.

Thank you for giving me a huge laugh this morning as I tried to imagine Alice Faye in one of Lady Gaga's more extravagant costumes!

[Richard Finegan]

I first saw GLORIFYING on Boston's WBZ at 1:00 AM, July 4th 1973. I was fascinated by the weird, grainy look of the B/W printed Technicolor scenes. I wanted to see more, but it wasn't going to be on TV in '73.

Me too! I was up watching it then too. Channel 4's "Boston Movietime". Still have my audio cassette I was recording from the TV while it was on.
I was just getting interested in "old movies" at that time and was disappointed that Channel 4 was starting to phase out the Paramount pre-1948 movies in that "Boston Movietime" time slot, especially when they started running the Tom Snyder talk show instead. That left the old movies for only late Saturday nights, some late Sunday nights, and a very occasional week-end afternoon.

[boblipton]

The issue of catholicity of taste versus discrimination ignores the basic issue; good music is good music. My favorite musicals are those of the Freed unit at MGM. The performances are great, the direction is great and the music and choreography are spot on and favor Great American Songbook. I am also very fond of some of the overlit Fox musicals of the 1940s, although I consider Carmen Miranda a horror. However, I am very fond of the Astaire-Rogers stuff and the early 1930s Paramount sound. In every case, you have good songs and efforts at excellence.

When people say they can't stand a particular sound, it may arise from certain technical issues -- modern technopop sounds so overedited that all emotional content is stripped out to my ear and the lyrics bespeak of a certainty and lack of sophistication that simply bore me. Where can you find the mocking self awareness of Lorenz Hart's "I Wish I Was in Love Again" and the clearly expressed longing for simplicity of Gus Kahn's "I Want to Be Happy"? These songs and their handlings demand something of me and reward me for the effort.

I don't want to be congratulated for being me. I want to be rewarded for making the effort for being more. Great music, great cinema, great art of any sort demands something from the audience. It may be that certain works don't speak to me, like Wild, which I saw last weekend. It doesn't mean I can't recognize the effort and perhaps if I put in additional work, I can feel what the artist intends. People who are unwilling to make the effort are lazy, self-congratulatory yahoos, whatever music or movie they claim is worthwhile or not.

Bob

[odinthor]

The issue of catholicity of taste versus discrimination ignores the basic issue; good music is good music. [...]

Thank goodness it's so easy--all we need to know is what good music is!

[Frederica]

The issue of catholicity of taste versus discrimination ignores the basic issue; good music is good music. [...]

Thank goodness it's so easy--all we need to know is what good music is!

Gracious, that's easy. It's "whatever music I like."

[Christopher Jacobs]

The issue of catholicity of taste versus discrimination ignores the basic issue; good music is good music. [...]

Thank goodness it's so easy--all we need to know is what good music is!

Gracious, that's easy. It's "whatever music I like."

Exactly what I was about to say!

Music started going downhill almost immediately after the death of Johann Sebastian Bach! Of course as always there were a few exceptions.

[westegg]

This is as good a time as any to mention a new book I'm reading: The B Side: The Death of Tin Pan Alley and the Rebirth of The Great American by Ben Yagoda. Lots of fascinating details about the evolution of pop music during the last century.

[Frederica]

Gracious, that's easy. It's "whatever music I like."

Exactly what I was about to say!

Music started going downhill almost immediately after the death of Johann Sebastian Bach! Of course as always there were a few exceptions.

Wagner, Verdi, AC/DC...

[s.w.a.c.]

I like all the Bachs ... JS, PDQ, Barbara, Catherine...OK, maybe not Sebastian.

[antoniod]

Of late-20s style orchestrations/records, my mother complains: "I don't like that rinky dink sound"! She actually said "Rin-Tin Tin sound" before I corrected her. She didn't even like the Armstrong Hot Sevens.

[busby1959]

The comments on this topic led me to watch GLORIFYING THE AMERICAN GIRL again last night. A happy discovery was that the copy I have is much cleaner and sharper than I'd remembered it being. From the brilliant opening montage I was immediately drawn into the spell of this wonderful time capsule of a movie. There are a number of technically impressive moments - extensive location footage, the live recording of Mary Eaton and Edward Crandall talking and singing in the canoe while we hear Olive Shea calling to them from the shore, ambient sound, and that striking POV shot of the ambulance speeding through the streets of New York. Mary Eaton is a delight to the eye and the ear and delivers a fine performance as the conflicted Gloria with plenty of opportunities to display her musical talents and lovely legs. Dan Healy makes a fine villain, compromising and lusting after Ms. Eaton (but can you blame him?), and it's always fun to see Sarah Edwards, here playing a much bigger role than usual. All in all, I counted at least 6 "damns" or "damn its" in the film, which makes me wonder - has anyone complied a list of profanities in pre-code movies? (off the top of my head I recall Fuller Mellish Jr. uttering a "damn" in APPLAUSE and a "hell" from Marjorie White in SUNNY SIDE UP.)

[entredeuxguerres]

...Dan Healy makes a fine villain, compromising and lusting after Ms. Eaton (but can you blame him?)...

Hardly! (By the way, his dancing partner at the store picnic was no less deserving of prurient attention.)

All in all, I counted at least 6 "damns" or "damn its" in the film, which makes me wonder - has anyone complied a list of profanities in pre-code movies? (off the top of my head I recall Fuller Mellish Jr. uttering a "damn" in APPLAUSE and a "hell" from Marjorie White in SUNNY SIDE UP.)

Such a list would be a mile long, & still incomplete. And for silents of course, such a list would include (by lip-reading) plenty of "Goddamns" & worse.

[odinthor]

...Dan Healy makes a fine villain, compromising and lusting after Ms. Eaton (but can you blame him?)...

Hardly! (By the way, his dancing partner at the store picnic was no less deserving of prurient attention.)

All in all, I counted at least 6 "damns" or "damn its" in the film, which makes me wonder - has anyone complied a list of profanities in pre-code movies? (off the top of my head I recall Fuller Mellish Jr. uttering a "damn" in APPLAUSE and a "hell" from Marjorie White in SUNNY SIDE UP.)

Such a list would be a mile long, & still incomplete. And for silents of course, such a list would include (by lip-reading) plenty of "Goddamns" & worse.

We're indulging in a bit of "thread drift" here--eh, why not?--but I think I see, in the chariot race in the silent Ben-Hur a "Damn!" or two, and I think a "Bastard!", from Messala.

[entredeuxguerres]

We're indulging in a bit of "thread drift" here--eh, why not?--but I think I see, in the chariot race in the silent Ben-Hur a "Damn!" or two, and I think a "Bastard!", from Messala.

Restrained compared to the swearing in Wings, & others. Some colorful language, too, by Jack Holt in Flight. Really not exceptional before Mr. Breen stuck his blue nose into H'wood.

I've actually been thinking about compiling a list of more manageable length: "Peggy Joyce" wisecracks. There are a lot of them, but not "hundreds."