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Hi all, I was under the impression up until the mid 30's that real bullets were used in cinematic shootouts at least in Hollywood. Does anyone have solid info on this?

From the beginning of shootemup production in H'wood, it would have been quite insane to fire anything but blanks--even pretend-cowboys & outlaws had to know that bullets shot into the air come down somewhere. So while we know that early film-makers weren't averse to dangerous stunts, they weren't homicidal.

It would be a different matter entirely if a marksman was directed to fire a bullet into a specific target--a canteen, let's say, or a kerosene lantern--for the cinematic effect.

Wellman used live ammo for at least one scene in Public Enemy. According to biographer Todd McCarthy, Hawks used live ammo in Scarface. Renoir used live ammo in The Rules of the Game.

They can't have been the only directors to do so.

When people fire guns in silents, massive lingering clouds of smoke come out of the barrels. Real bullet fire, as in Cease Fire! (1953), isn't nearly as visual.

It's one thing to talk about a rare sharpshooter-required scene - for a bullet to hit a specific target at a specific time, etc.

But yes, to think that in an early shoot-em-up, with several guns blazing in all directions amongst a bunch of actors, they all had live ammo in their guns, is too think of early casts and crews as stupid in the extreme.

In other words, no way.

Daniel Eagan wrote:Wellman used live ammo for at least one scene in Public Enemy. According to biographer Todd McCarthy, Hawks used live ammo in Scarface. Renoir used live ammo in The Rules of the Game.

Well, no doubt, at least, about the "authenticity" of the hunting scenes in The Rules of the Game. (Visit no French, or other European, markets is you find those scenes disagreeable.)

But that fascinating picture is a far cry from the "cinematic shootouts" about which the original question was asked. I assumed it pertained to scenes of wholesale, indiscriminate, gun-fighting: the typical bandits vs. lawmen or townsmen scenes in a thousand Westerns, or cops & robbers showdowns in an urban setting (my favorite of that genre: the suicidal shootout at the end of Beast of the City (1932).

I've read that those machine-gun bullets tearing apart the stone corner Cagney takes cover behind in Public Enemy were real, but if so, they were most assuredly fired by an expert, not an extra. But--as illusion is the very essence of H'wood--I can't repress my skepticism about that story, as the same effect could have been achieved with charges implanted in the wall. Tales told to gullible interviewers decades after the fact also arouse my skepticism.

I've been watching te Hopalong Cassidy cutdowns playing on Channel 1250 and in one shoot-out, he emptied one revolver,switched to the other and proceeded to fire his six-gun 14 times. so I think not.

Bob

Nick_M wrote:When people fire guns in silents, massive lingering clouds of smoke come out of the barrels. Real bullet fire, as in Cease Fire! (1953), isn't nearly as visual.

The "real bullet fire" you're referring to would have been from cartridges loaded with modern smokeless powder. The "lingering clouds of smoke" would have been produced by black-powder, which was commonly loaded in blanks, at least until very recently.

entredeuxguerres wrote:

Nick_M wrote:When people fire guns in silents, massive lingering clouds of smoke come out of the barrels. Real bullet fire, as in Cease Fire! (1953), isn't nearly as visual.

The "real bullet fire" you're referring to would have been from cartridges loaded with modern smokeless powder. The "lingering clouds of smoke" would have been produced by black-powder, which was commonly loaded in blanks, at least until very recently.

As someone who used to fire rifles with black powder cartridges (summer student job portraying a Victorian foot soldier), I can attest to the amount of smoke they'd generate. Also, in our case anyway, the powder was held in place in the cartridge with a layer of paraffin wax since there was no bullet, and that would also add to the smoke factor.

Slightly off topic, but it can be very disconcerting to see cannons firing onscreen with little or no recoil.

s.w.a.c. wrote:As someone who used to fire rifles with black powder cartridges (summer student job portraying a Victorian foot soldier)...

The Thin Red Line needed you at the recent Battle of Sinop (Crimea) re-enactment--only a handful of Brits showed up to represent the Queen, facing off against hundreds of the Czar's men.

FrankFay wrote:Slightly off topic, but it can be very disconcerting to see cannons firing onscreen with little or no recoil.

As easy as it would be to have a few men out of camera range simulate recoil by pulling a rope attached to the carriage, it was rarely done, thus demonstrating the carelessness, or the ignorance, of the production crew; or maybe it was the ignorance of the average viewer they were counting on--pretty much a sure bet..

Gents, I hit the mark even earlier!

One whole summer in the outdoor drama TECUMSEH!, I loaded and fired (in vain; this one of my several characters was killed by a Shawnee brave every night) a breechloading musket.

Happy holidays,
-Craig

s.w.a.c. wrote:

entredeuxguerres wrote:

Nick_M wrote:When people fire guns in silents, massive lingering clouds of smoke come out of the barrels. Real bullet fire, as in Cease Fire! (1953), isn't nearly as visual.

The "real bullet fire" you're referring to would have been from cartridges loaded with modern smokeless powder. The "lingering clouds of smoke" would have been produced by black-powder, which was commonly loaded in blanks, at least until very recently.

As someone who used to fire rifles with black powder cartridges (summer student job portraying a Victorian foot soldier), I can attest to the amount of smoke they'd generate. Also, in our case anyway, the powder was held in place in the cartridge with a layer of paraffin wax since there was no bullet, and that would also add to the smoke factor.

I can agree with that. I used to shoot black powder muskets and other black powder guns and if there was no wind I would be enveloped in a cloud of smelly choking smoke and had to step forward a few paces to see if I got anywhere near the target. The smoke was thick, sticky and greasy and got on everything. The sparks and burnt powder from the flash pan were dangerous and peppered your face and eyes. The guns had to stripped completely after use and thoroughly cleaned or else they would clag up and rust quickly. It's a wonder anyone could wage war with those contraptions.

Sadly this thread reminds me of the tragedy/death of Brandon Lee, Bruce's son. Blank cartridges were being used if I'm to understand. If the blanks were what I've known them to be, the rear part of the round was part of the actual bullet / projectile assembly with the bullet itself being removed. The front part of the round where the bullet would have been mounted was snubbed off or squeezed shut. Thus ordinarily when the cartridge was fired nothing would come out and the cartridge would just dispense(*you wouldn't want to put the muzzle up to your eye to see if anything comes out ). Since this was a movie and bullet fire simulation needed to be achieved , there would have been no flash suppressor on the muzzles to ensure safety. They were rehearsing or shooting a scene with the weapons (initial reports said they were horsing around on the set with 'blanked' firearms). Brandon's adversary fired and the rear part of the round that should've dispensed actually went through the chamber fatally wounding him. I remember being ticked at this when it happened as I initially thought that horseplay on the set with loaded though blanked firearms led to this tragedy.

Not understanding the nature of blanks is what caused the death of actor John Erik Hexum.

entredeuxguerres wrote:

s.w.a.c. wrote:As someone who used to fire rifles with black powder cartridges (summer student job portraying a Victorian foot soldier)...

The Thin Red Line needed you at the recent Battle of Sinop (Crimea) re-enactment--only a handful of Brits showed up to represent the Queen, facing off against hundreds of the Czar's men.

Funny, we had a repro of the Thin Red Line painting in our barracks in Halifax's Citadel Hill fortress, but our unit, the 78th Highlanders, was better known for its role in the Indian campaign, at the Siege of Lucknow and elsewhere.

Changsham wrote:I can agree with that. I used to shoot black powder muskets and other black powder guns and if there was no wind I would be enveloped in a cloud of smelly choking smoke and had to step forward a few paces to see if I got anywhere near the target. The smoke was thick, sticky and greasy and got on everything. The sparks and burnt powder from the flash pan were dangerous and peppered your face and eyes. The guns had to stripped completely after use and thoroughly cleaned or else they would clag up and rust quickly. It's a wonder anyone could wage war with those contraptions.

Our experience was the same, very messy, especially when you're expected to keep your belts and straps bright white, and black leather cartridge pouch polished to a mirror-like surface. We used vintage Snider-Enfield breech-loading rifles, and had to clean them thoroughly after every time we fired them.

Our rifle drill instructor showed us how dangerous the muzzle blast from a blank black powder cartridge would be by placing a cardboard box over the end of a rifle and firing it, tearing the box to shreds. Decades later, I've yet to hear of an injury resulting from rifle drill there, it was a very effective lesson.

s.w.a.c. wrote:...We used vintage Snider-Enfield breech-loading rifles...

I owned one of those rifles, a cavalry carbine, in the late '60s! Thousands of them had been imported from India, fairly beat-up, and were being retailed for no more, I think, than about $20. The catch, however, was that no cartridges or even cartridge cases were available, so they were essentially un-fireable. A long time after that, new-made cases became available, and I regret selling mine, as the value has increased many times.

From 1919 to 1998 Stembridge Guns was the Hollywood arsenal. Founded by CB DeMille and James Stembridge, it was located for most of that on the Paramount lot. Their main claim to fame was the development of the 5 in 1 blank cartridge. These were available in fractional size (1/4, 1/2 & 3/4) as well as full loads and would fit the chambers of most of the popular guns used set up for blanks, including Flintlocks and other antique weapons that had hidden mechanics installed by their gunsmiths.

stairstars wrote:...including Flintlocks and other antique weapons that had hidden mechanics installed by their gunsmiths.

I've seen those! Some of them, anyway, and wondered where they came from. One way they did this was to take readily available breechloading "Trapdoor" Springfields (worth, at the time, maybe 10 bucks, but now a minimum of about a grand), graft flint hammers on to them, and presto, the extras have "flintlocks" that can be fired with the convenience of a cartridge gun. Maybe those guns, thus bastardized, are worth something to movie-memorabilia collectors, but to antique gun collectors, they're no more than tears & scrap metal.

Yes, to prop collectors, especially those exempt from FFL regs, these guns are very desirable. Many have copy of the original studio rental sheet, recorded by serial number, for the film(s) used. I had this one many years ago:
It, too, breach loaded (you can see the added pivot pin) to reveal the modern chamber. Ingenious.

entredeuxguerres wrote:

FrankFay wrote:Slightly off topic, but it can be very disconcerting to see cannons firing onscreen with little or no recoil.

As easy as it would be to have a few men out of camera range simulate recoil by pulling a rope attached to the carriage, it was rarely done, thus demonstrating the carelessness, or the ignorance, of the production crew; or maybe it was the ignorance of the average viewer they were counting on--pretty much a sure bet..

Gance was one of those who noticed- his guns in NAPOLEON were attached to elastic cables- as an actor set off the powder charge he stepped on the release which pulled the carriage back.

One of the sillier lapses is the cannon in the apartment in LES VAMPIRES. It does recoil a little, but by rights it should have wrecked the room. Still, that serial requires complete suspension of disbelief.

entredeuxguerres wrote:

s.w.a.c. wrote:...We used vintage Snider-Enfield breech-loading rifles...

I owned one of those rifles, a cavalry carbine, in the late '60s! Thousands of them had been imported from India, fairly beat-up, and were being retailed for no more, I think, than about $20. The catch, however, was that no cartridges or even cartridge cases were available, so they were essentially un-fireable. A long time after that, new-made cases became available, and I regret selling mine, as the value has increased many times.

The Brits scrapped the Snider-Enfields as service weapons in large numbers when the Martini-Henry rifle came along, but they kept them for rifle drill training for cadets and recruits for years afterwards. My grandfather scored two Snider-Enfields when they were just going to dismantle them and toss them in to a hole in the ground in New Brunswick (I guess they were just giving them away, I don't know the whole story), and one of them is mounted on the wall at my uncle's house, with the three-sided bayonet that affixed to the muzzle (created a hard-to-close sucking chest wound, nasty business to get stabbed with one of those).

Our cartridges were custom-made, we went to great lengths to prevent them from getting lost or damaged on Citadel Hill, having to tip them out of the breech and into our hands (instead of on the ground, as in battle) and put them back in our cartridge pouch so they could be refilled afterwards. Had to be extra careful with the rifles as well, since the collector's market for them was driven crazy by the demand for them by Civil War re-enactors. I guess the UK supplied the South with Snider-Enfields towards the end of the War Between the States, so they were considered historically correct for their use, go figure.

I used to wonder what kind of rifle Buster Keaton poses with in promo photos for The General where he's in a Confederate uniform, but I don't have a clear version of one handy to check. I thought it might be a cartridge rifle, but I haven't seen the photos clearly in ages.