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odinthor wrote:Maybe I need more coffee; but I don't understand this response, especially in light of telical's original question ("It got me to think of an imaginary course where studies would use old movies to teach about good character and having strong work ethic, etc."). Even with each movie having "its own kind of moral universe," such movies still teach "about the moral choices that characters face." Could you clarify the distinction you're making? Thanks.

In other words: a value that a given movie seems to "advocate" can be tied in with other values, for better or worse. Many of D. W. Griffith's works deal with compassion in certain ways (The Birth of a Nation, Intolerance, The Girl Who Stayed at Home, Broken Blossoms, Sally of the Sawdust), but BOAN's treatment of the issue is a lot different (and dependent on some downright negative values) compared with what one finds in Blossoms, for instance. That's what I mean by each movie having a slightly different moral universe.

-HA

Contrary to their reputation for flaunting conventional morality with impunity, the great majority of pre-Codes end with any wayward characters in the tale having learned, or been shown, often to much sorrow, the errors of their sinful or profligate ways. Red-Headed Woman is a rare exception, Baby Face typical of the norm.

The key is how quickly they dispose of the wrap-up. I think the speed record is set by Female, which takes less than a minute at the end to completely overturn the rest of the movie-- if you believe it, which I don't think you're really meant to.

earlytalkiebuffRob wrote:

sc1957 wrote:But whose values? The usual assumption would be the values of the ruling class, right? Which may or may not be useful in the long run, but at least you'll be a proper cog in the current machine.

Precisely. I must admit to finding the 'work ethic' a rather ludicrous 'virtue'. Admittedly some work is beneficial, useful, essential, unavoidable, good, etc., but not all work is - not by a long chalk. The old saw about 'hard work never killed anyone' would get a hearty chuckle from the inhabitants of many a cemetery.

It is relative. There is nothing unethical about making as much money as easily as possible as long as
no one is hurt in doing so. However, most people can't make that much very easily and so having a good
work ethic at least keeps complaining down to a minimum which allows you to focus on other things.
Having a really bad work ethic is often seen in people with a lot of other bad habits as well, bad can just
be read as bothersome to other people around them. A good work ethic is good as can be seen in someone
like Edison, or people that cure diseases, and so on. However, it seems the work environment has not been
very "ethical" for many people lately and you get report after report that no matter how good a person was as a worker,
they had little long term benefits from this.

earlytalkiebuffRob wrote:
...I must admit to finding the 'work ethic' a rather ludicrous 'virtue'. Admittedly some work is beneficial, useful, essential, unavoidable, good, etc., but not all work is - not by a long chalk...

But if having it makes more tolerable what for most is unavoidable anyway--work, that is--isn't that good for the individual (apart for whatever benefits accrue to society)? Not that it's a value to be learned from films--if it's not ingrained in the home at any early age, it's too late to acquire it later.

Frederica wrote:

odinthor wrote: And, though I've already used up my allotment of five, surely Destry Rides Again deserves mention. And what about Laughter (1930)? And Only Yesterday (1933)? Madam Satan (1930)? All of these are very consciously concerned with teaching values. Could a person walk out of the theater and not have gained some insights in the matter of values from these shows?

Madam Satan? I saw it at the theater recently and I indeed walked out without any insights into values at all. Were there values there? Other than learning about the proper ensembles to wear on a dirigible, that is.

Maybe it's just a product of the way I go about things; but rare indeed is the movie that I don't draw some nugget on the conduct of Life from. I pose questions to myself:

--What do you see the film being about?

--What drives the events?

--Do any of the principal characters reflect on the situation or their motivations?

--Do any of the secondary characters comment on the situation in one way or another (i.e., can also be by giving a "look" or physical reaction which we the audience see but other characters don't), or do they make suggestions?

--How is the situation resolved?

And one might add, with the present thread in mind:

--Is there anything in the set of occurrences or in the resolution which an audience member might find applicable to his or her own situation?

And so, when anyone says that there was no take-away concerning values of a show which I've subjected to the above, with results, I'm somewhat taken aback, just as if, say, someone told me that Wild Strawberries is best described as an interesting travelogue about back-country Sweden hosted by a nice old man. I can only respond, "But . . . but . . . "

Doubtless, some shows don't yield much: I mentioned Gold Dust Gertie the other day, and one would have to dig pretty hard to come up with any values take-away other than something watery like "Be pragmatic"; and the sense of plenty of shows would, similarly, not amount to much more than "Be kind" or "Be diligent" or "Be patient." But plenty of other shows have a richer and more sophisticated value-underpinning; and it seems to me that Madam Satan is pretty blatant in "selling" its point. Put the above questions to yourself about Madam Satan, and see if--whether or not you agree with the values--you find it within the realm of possibility that the movie is not just song and dance and repartee but also concerned with putting across certain conduct-of-life values.

odinthor wrote:

Frederica wrote:

odinthor wrote: And, though I've already used up my allotment of five, surely Destry Rides Again deserves mention. And what about Laughter (1930)? And Only Yesterday (1933)? Madam Satan (1930)? All of these are very consciously concerned with teaching values. Could a person walk out of the theater and not have gained some insights in the matter of values from these shows?

Madam Satan? I saw it at the theater recently and I indeed walked out without any insights into values at all. Were there values there? Other than learning about the proper ensembles to wear on a dirigible, that is.

Maybe it's just a product of the way I go about things; but rare indeed is the movie that I don't draw some nugget on the conduct of Life from. I pose questions to myself:

--What do you see the film being about?

--What drives the events?

--Do any of the principal characters reflect on the situation or their motivations?

--Do any of the secondary characters comment on the situation in one way or another (i.e., can also be by giving a "look" or physical reaction which we the audience see but other characters don't), or do they make suggestions?

--How is the situation resolved?

And one might add, with the present thread in mind:

--Is there anything in the set of occurrences or in the resolution which an audience member might find applicable to his or her own situation?

And so, when anyone says that there was no take-away concerning values of a show which I've subjected to the above, with results, I'm somewhat taken aback, just as if, say, someone told me that Wild Strawberries is best described as an interesting travelogue about back-country Sweden hosted by a nice old man. I can only respond, "But . . . but . . . "

Doubtless, some shows don't yield much: I mentioned Gold Dust Gertie the other day, and one would have to dig pretty hard to come up with any values take-away other than something watery like "Be pragmatic"; and the sense of plenty of shows would, similarly, not amount to much more than "Be kind" or "Be diligent" or "Be patient." But plenty of other shows have a richer and more sophisticated value-underpinning; and it seems to me that Madam Satan is pretty blatant in "selling" its point. Put the above questions to yourself about Madam Satan, and see if--whether or not you agree with the values--you find it within the realm of possibility that the movie is not just song and dance and repartee but also concerned with putting across certain conduct-of-life values.

OH MY. More power to you, but your approach to movies is different from mine. No dis intended, btw. Especially these days my main criteria is "will I have fun watching this?" If the answer is "probably not," I do not watch it. So I had a great time at Deadpool but I didn't take anything profound away from it. (Thank god for that, you'd have to be very strange to have derived anything profound from Deadpool.) I also had a great time at Madam Satan, but that's because it's bonkers.

I am much more likely to approach books in the way you describe but even then, not so much any longer.

boblipton wrote:And you think that isn't an important value?

Bob

You ask this of a Daughter of Naldi?

Frederica wrote:

odinthor wrote: And, though I've already used up my allotment of five, surely Destry Rides Again deserves mention. And what about Laughter (1930)? And Only Yesterday (1933)? Madam Satan (1930)? All of these are very consciously concerned with teaching values. Could a person walk out of the theater and not have gained some insights in the matter of values from these shows?

Madam Satan? I saw it at the theater recently and I indeed walked out without any insights into values at all. Were there values there? Other than learning about the proper ensembles to wear on a dirigible, that is.

Important as proper couture is when attending a masked bacchanale aboard a dirigible, MS offers many other important life lessons as well:

1) role playing can spice up a marriage
2) Hell is somewhere in France
3) Humankind has not learned the lessons from the TITANIC disaster: i.e., don't trust the vessel you are on to have enough life saving equipment on hand for all lives on-board. Hoard if necessary to ensure you are properly covered in the event of an emergency.
4) Love *is* such a little word for such a *big* thing

Harlett O'Dowd wrote:...3) Humankind has not learned the lessons from the TITANIC disaster: i.e., don't trust the vessel you are on to have enough life saving equipment on hand for all lives on-board. Hoard if necessary to ensure you are properly covered in the event of an emergency.

Life-saving eqpt. on this dirigible beat the hell out of that provided on the Hindenburg 7 yrs afterwards...whose passengers got to choose between burning & jumping sans parachutes.

entredeuxguerres wrote:

Harlett O'Dowd wrote:...3) Humankind has not learned the lessons from the TITANIC disaster: i.e., don't trust the vessel you are on to have enough life saving equipment on hand for all lives on-board. Hoard if necessary to ensure you are properly covered in the event of an emergency.

Life-saving eqpt. on this dirigible beat the hell out of that provided on the Hindenburg 7 yrs afterwards...whose passengers got to choose between burning & jumping sans parachutes.

would the Hindenburg people have had a chance to a) don parachutes and b) have them open high enough in the air for it to do them any good? That ship went down awfully quickly.

Harlett O'Dowd wrote: would the Hindenburg people have had a chance to a) don parachutes and b) have them open high enough in the air for it to do them any good? That ship went down awfully quickly.

No--already too late for that the moment the fire broke out.

Harlett O'Dowd wrote:

Frederica wrote:

odinthor wrote: And, though I've already used up my allotment of five, surely Destry Rides Again deserves mention. And what about Laughter (1930)? And Only Yesterday (1933)? Madam Satan (1930)? All of these are very consciously concerned with teaching values. Could a person walk out of the theater and not have gained some insights in the matter of values from these shows?

Madam Satan? I saw it at the theater recently and I indeed walked out without any insights into values at all. Were there values there? Other than learning about the proper ensembles to wear on a dirigible, that is.

Important as proper couture is when attending a masked bacchanale aboard a dirigible, MS offers many other important life lessons as well:

1) role playing can spice up a marriage
2) Hell is somewhere in France
3) Humankind has not learned the lessons from the TITANIC disaster: i.e., don't trust the vessel you are on to have enough life saving equipment on hand for all lives on-board. Hoard if necessary to ensure you are properly covered in the event of an emergency.
4) Love *is* such a little word for such a *big* thing

5) (in the words of the song If You Can’t Hold the Man You Love, by Irving Kahal and Sammy Fain, contemporary with Madam Satan):

"My sermon for the Sabbath Day,"
Said Parson Johnson Brown,
"Is going to be of interest to every gal in town;
Mandy Lee has done told me
Her man is gone away.
That will be the subject
Which I'll preach about today."
If you can't hold the man you love,
Don't cry when he's gone;
If you can't keep a good man down,
Don't you carry on!
First I want you gals to know
A little fact I've known,
It takes more than a radio
To keep a man at home! [etc., etc.]

odinthor wrote: 5) (in the words of the song If You Can’t Hold the Man You Love, by Irving Kahal and Sammy Fain, contemporary with Madam Satan):

"My sermon for the Sabbath Day,"
Said Parson Johnson Brown,
"Is going to be of interest to every gal in town;
Mandy Lee has done told me
Her man is gone away.
That will be the subject
Which I'll preach about today."
If you can't hold the man you love,
Don't cry when he's gone;
If you can't keep a good man down,
Don't you carry on!
First I want you gals to know
A little fact I've known,
It takes more than a radio
To keep a man at home! [etc., etc.]

In that respect, I think the more important lesson to take away from Madam Satan is "Ladies, wives, mothers. Do you really want to keep the loser at home? Wouldn't you be happier if he gave you easy grounds for uncontested divorce? Because let's face it, he really is a schmo."

I don't think being a schmo is grounds for a divorce, but it is for a get.

Bob

entredeuxguerres wrote:

Harlett O'Dowd wrote: would the Hindenburg people have had a chance to a) don parachutes and b) have them open high enough in the air for it to do them any good? That ship went down awfully quickly.

No--already too late for that the moment the fire broke out.

then why are you bemoaning the lack of parachutes on the Hindenburg? They wouldn't have helped.

Frederica wrote:

odinthor wrote: 5) (in the words of the song If You Can’t Hold the Man You Love, by Irving Kahal and Sammy Fain, contemporary with Madam Satan):

[...]

It takes more than a radio
To keep a man at home! [etc., etc.]

In that respect, I think the more important lesson to take away from Madam Satan is "Ladies, wives, mothers. Do you really want to keep the loser at home? Wouldn't you be happier if he gave you easy grounds for uncontested divorce? Because let's face it, he really is a schmo."

The movie's answer is, "Why, yes--yes I do want that schmo, because I love him." What caught my attention the first time I watched the movie was that it wasn't simply another iteration of dump-fest on straying husband--it actually probed into just why he was straying, gave Hubby an arguably reasonable viewpoint (to wit, he's frustrated because wife apparently spontaneously changed after marriage to, I think we are to understand, some degree of frigidity), and the situation is resolved because both parties have learned something about themselves and each other and have changed. Along with enjoying Madam Satan on a song/dance/jokes/thrills level, I really have a lot of respect for the show's insight and humanity. But of course the show's most important lesson to learn is husbands should never sing duets while taking a shower with their guy-friends.

odinthor wrote: The movie's answer is, "Why, yes--yes I do want that schmo, because I love him." What caught my attention the first time I watched the movie was that it wasn't simply another iteration of dump-fest on straying husband--it actually probed into just why he was straying, gave Hubby an arguably reasonable viewpoint (to wit, he's frustrated because wife apparently spontaneously changed after marriage to, I think we are to understand, some degree of frigidity), and the situation is resolved because both parties have learned something about themselves and each other and have changed. Along with enjoying Madam Satan on a song/dance/jokes/thrills level, I really have a lot of respect for the show's insight and humanity. But of course the show's most important lesson to learn is husbands should never sing duets while taking a shower with their guy-friends.

I don't notice much of a difference between MS and DeMille's silent domestic comedy-fables (specifically, DON'T CHANGE YOUR HUSBAND and WHY CHANGE YOUR WIFE?)

Well, apart from the sound, and the singing and dancing and the "I wave my private parts at your aunties"-styled French accent ... and the ballet electrique ... and the dirigible.

(note the link in my signature)

odinthor wrote: The movie's answer is, "Why, yes--yes I do want that schmo, because I love him." What caught my attention the first time I watched the movie was that it wasn't simply another iteration of dump-fest on straying husband--it actually probed into just why he was straying, gave Hubby an arguably reasonable viewpoint (to wit, he's frustrated because wife apparently spontaneously changed after marriage to, I think we are to understand, some degree of frigidity), and the situation is resolved because both parties have learned something about themselves and each other and have changed. Along with enjoying Madam Satan on a song/dance/jokes/thrills level, I really have a lot of respect for the show's insight and humanity. But of course the show's most important lesson to learn is husbands should never sing duets while taking a shower with their guy-friends.

I bow you your greater ability to derive meaning from film. The concept never even occurred to me, I was too bedazzled by the Ballet Mechanique. I tell you, this is what makes the world go around. Oh no wait...that's the earth spinning on its axis.

odinthor wrote:...What caught my attention the first time I watched the movie was that it wasn't simply another iteration of dump-fest on straying husband--it actually probed into just why he was straying, gave Hubby an arguably reasonable viewpoint (to wit, he's frustrated because wife apparently spontaneously changed after marriage to, I think we are to understand, some degree of frigidity)...

Reason Number One, always, for straying husbands: wives who (as Joan Blondel delicately explained the matter) "ain't puttin' out."

entredeuxguerres wrote:

odinthor wrote:...What caught my attention the first time I watched the movie was that it wasn't simply another iteration of dump-fest on straying husband--it actually probed into just why he was straying, gave Hubby an arguably reasonable viewpoint (to wit, he's frustrated because wife apparently spontaneously changed after marriage to, I think we are to understand, some degree of frigidity)...

Reason Number One, always, for straying husbands: wives who (as Joan Blondel delicately explained the matter) "ain't puttin' out."

Soph did it better: "You can't sew a button on a heart"

Harlett O'Dowd wrote:

entredeuxguerres wrote:

Harlett O'Dowd wrote: would the Hindenburg people have had a chance to a) don parachutes and b) have them open high enough in the air for it to do them any good? That ship went down awfully quickly.

No--already too late for that the moment the fire broke out.

then why are you bemoaning the lack of parachutes on the Hindenburg? They wouldn't have helped.

Perhaps one could have shimmied down a mooring rope?

Donald Binks wrote:
Perhaps one could have shimmied down a mooring rope?

I thought a couple did. That was clearly a case of being in the right place at the right time. Many of those who were able to jump survived. Had the ship exploded higher in the air, the survival rate would have been almost 0 ... unless they had time to don parachutes.

Harlett O'Dowd wrote: I don't notice much of a difference between MS and DeMille's silent domestic comedy-fables (specifically, DON'T CHANGE YOUR HUSBAND and WHY CHANGE YOUR WIFE?)...

In Why Change Your Wife?, Swanson, in addition to APO, also hated his beautiful dog. (Until she learned her lesson.)

entredeuxguerres wrote:

odinthor wrote:...What caught my attention the first time I watched the movie was that it wasn't simply another iteration of dump-fest on straying husband--it actually probed into just why he was straying, gave Hubby an arguably reasonable viewpoint (to wit, he's frustrated because wife apparently spontaneously changed after marriage to, I think we are to understand, some degree of frigidity)...

Reason Number One, always, for straying husbands: wives who (as Joan Blondel delicately explained the matter) "ain't puttin' out."

Maybe said wives are bored.

Donald Binks wrote:
Perhaps one could have shimmied down a mooring rope?

Doesn't seem like people got the idea too quickly that it wasn't a safe way of travelling:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airship_accidents" target="_blank" target="_blank

Luckily, everyone wisened up about cigarettes faster.

My third film: Pan's Labyrinth.

What pictures have taught me good values?

Well, let me see - firstly, any W.C. Fields picture would tend to teach me how to overcome the foibles of the business world by becoming a racketeer and charlatan myself. He also taught me that drinking was an art.

Next - any Marx Bros. picture. These helped me immeasurably in coping with legal people and how to generally deal in business undertakings. Above all, the Marx Bros. showed that the world is basically a ball of lunacy and that being a lunatic oneself was the best way of dealing with it.

And, not forgetting any Laurel and Hardy picture. It shows that one doesn't need any intelligence whatsoever in order to survive - in fact life can be very enjoyable even if you don't bother to use your brains. (Provided one possesses one).

Lastly - "Bedazzled" with Pete and Dud guiding me around the seven deadly sins.

entredeuxguerres wrote:

earlytalkiebuffRob wrote:
...I must admit to finding the 'work ethic' a rather ludicrous 'virtue'. Admittedly some work is beneficial, useful, essential, unavoidable, good, etc., but not all work is - not by a long chalk...

But if having it makes more tolerable what for most is unavoidable anyway--work, that is--isn't that good for the individual (apart for whatever benefits accrue to society)? Not that it's a value to be learned from films--if it's not ingrained in the home at any early age, it's too late to acquire it later.

I wasn't so much having a pop at work, as the idea that it is a good thing in itself. Naturally some forms or work are beneficial to many people, but not all of them are. Quite the opposite, in cases of wasteful production, to give just one instance.

Donald Binks wrote:What pictures have taught me good values?

Well, let me see - firstly, any W.C. Fields picture would tend to teach me how to overcome the foibles of the business world by becoming a racketeer and charlatan myself. He also taught me that drinking was an art.

Next - any Marx Bros. picture. These helped me immeasurably in coping with legal people and how to generally deal in business undertakings. Above all, the Marx Bros. showed that the world is basically a ball of lunacy and that being a lunatic oneself was the best way of dealing with it.

And, not forgetting any Laurel and Hardy picture. It shows that one doesn't need any intelligence whatsoever in order to survive - in fact life can be very enjoyable even if you don't bother to use your brains. (Provided one possesses one).

Lastly - "Bedazzled" with Pete and Dud guiding me around the seven deadly sins.

Speaking as a small shopkeeper, Mr Fields is indeed a model example, whether in IT'S THE OLD ARMY GAME, IT'S A GIFT or THE PHARMACIST, and one identifies with him completely. (And on a television note, 'Arkwright' in 'Open All Hours' and 'Auntie Wainwright' in 'Last of the Summer Wine')

"Watch out for the blind man!"