Love Him or Loathe Him Lewis

Open, general discussion of classic sound-era films, personalities and history.
josemas
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:05 pm

Post by josemas » Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:34 pm

Jim Roots wrote:Enjoyable comments, guys (note that not one female has contributed to this thread yet...) but nobody has addressed my reason for starting this thread: how come 5 years have passed with no whisper of a second volume of Lewis' Ultimate Collection?

There are at least 10 more Lewis films out there, whose rights he controls himself and which are well-known among aficionados. So the problem isn't getting the rights, or putting out unknown titles, or not having decent source materials.

I'm sure Jim Neibuhr (I'm sorry, I can never remember how to spell his surname) would have an answer, but as Mike mentioned, he doesn't seem to participate in the greatest website in Internet history. This one, dummy. So, lacking Jim N., does anyone have any ideas?

Jim
Jim Neibaur did mention, on another site, a year or two back, that the set had not done as well as hoped.

As to Jerry's work, I feel that the best stuff he ever did were those Colgate Comedy Hours in the 1950s. He and Dean were at their best when working live and this is as close as we'll ever get to seeing them perform as such. Some of those skits are just "laugh out loud" hilarious. Plus their chemistry together has never been captured better than in these episodes.

Joe Moore

gjohnson
Posts: 653
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:56 pm
Contact:

Post by gjohnson » Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:21 am

Funny you should mention those shows Joe. I've been looking for xmas references from TV shows of the 50's & 60's and have been pouring thru my 2 disc set of their Colgate shows these past two days. My eyes are getting bleary and for some reason a high pitched nasally voice keeps echoing in my head.

But it is amazing how poorly their Hollywood films did at transferring their manic on-stage energy to the big screen. Every one of their TV shows would end with some portion of their stage act as the two would banter in front of their band and it was like night and day when compared to the limp reinactments in such films as "The Caddie" (53) or "The Stooge" (52). The other notable trait that came from the Colgate shows was how often the sketches tried to play with the new medium of television by breaking thru the fourth wall. Jerry is constantly playing hide and seek with the cameras or running out into the audience like he's Harpo's distant relative. There is a sketch in which a new wide screen television screen is unveiled on stage and Martin & Lewis appear as the first test subjects. However, as they begin performing in the Imax screen Martin & Lewis themselves walk out on stage and start heckling their screen images. Finally Jerry takes a swing at the screen and knocks the duo down. Even with the limited technology of the day there were many such attempts at sf/x bits and I have to think they originated from Lewis. Regardless what one thinks of his performing style he definitely had a creative mind.

Gary J.

User avatar
precode
Posts: 555
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:49 pm
Location: Shemptown

Post by precode » Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:46 am

gjohnson wrote: But it is amazing how poorly their Hollywood films did at transferring their manic on-stage energy to the big screen.
This is true of many other comedy teams, Olsen & Johnson and The Ritz Brothers in particular.

Mike S.

"Wanna buy a stove? It's hot!"

vitaphone
Posts: 506
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2009 8:50 am
Location: New Jersey

Post by vitaphone » Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:58 am

CRAZY HOUSE (Univ/1943) with Olsen & Johnson is one of Quentin Tarantino's films. My father worked for awhile at a bank in Manhattan in the forties. He told me one day O&J came into the bank firing stage pistols and creating a general racket. As everyone knew who they were, they just laughed. Imagine if it was today?

Clark & McCullough also seemed hilarious in the studio or on stage but it didn't fully translate to the screen.

User avatar
Jim Roots
Posts: 5255
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:45 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Post by Jim Roots » Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:09 am

josemas wrote:
Jim Roots wrote:Enjoyable comments, guys (note that not one female has contributed to this thread yet...) but nobody has addressed my reason for starting this thread: how come 5 years have passed with no whisper of a second volume of Lewis' Ultimate Collection?

There are at least 10 more Lewis films out there, whose rights he controls himself and which are well-known among aficionados. So the problem isn't getting the rights, or putting out unknown titles, or not having decent source materials.

I'm sure Jim Neibuhr (I'm sorry, I can never remember how to spell his surname) would have an answer, but as Mike mentioned, he doesn't seem to participate in the greatest website in Internet history. This one, dummy. So, lacking Jim N., does anyone have any ideas?

Jim
Jim Neibaur did mention, on another site, a year or two back, that the set had not done as well as hoped.
Well, this being Jerry Lewis, he probably had unrealistic expectations for sales. The number actually sold would probably be considered very good for a boxed set of early 1960s comedies, say similar to that for Jack Lemmon's set or Don Knotts' long-ago triple pack ((Ghost and Mr. Chicken, Reluctant Astronaut, The Love God). And yes, I would put Lewis on the same mediocre level as Knotts. In fact, I prefer Knotts and got a lot more laughs out of his 3 films than I did out of Lewis' 10 films. But my point is that Lewis probably expected to sell as many copies as Star Wars and anything less was considered "disappointing".

Too bad. There wasn't much promo for it, as far I know. Maybe a PR push would have helped matters.

Jim

User avatar
FrankFay
Posts: 4072
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:48 am
Location: Albany NY
Contact:

Post by FrankFay » Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:38 am

the problem with Don Knotts is that they took a superb supporting player and tried to make him a lead. On top of that is wasn't the best era for comedy, most of the scripts tended to be a subtle as a blow to the head. He comes off well in "The Incredible Mr Limpet" and not just because it's animated.
Eric Stott

gjohnson
Posts: 653
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:56 pm
Contact:

Post by gjohnson » Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:15 am

The problem with Don Knotts is that he is a comic actor and we were discussing a comedian.

Gary J.

User avatar
spadeneal
Posts: 649
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:58 pm
Location: Hamilton, OH

Post by spadeneal » Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:51 am

We were discussing Lewis, but the thread moved off onto Don Knotts. I just wanted to say that I find The Love God one of the funniest and most prescient satires of the '60s. There was an old edition of Leonard Maltin's Movie Guide where he really slammed it, so when I finally saw it I was surprised how good it was. The idea of a woman holding a high position in a sex publication was prophetic, though it would be another 6-7 years before Christie Hefner took over the editorial direction of Playboy.

It would have been interesting to see what Nat Hiken would have done had he lived into the 1970s. As it was, he barely lived long enough to put a wrap on The Love God.

spadeneal

dr.giraud
Posts: 780
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:15 pm
Location: Albany, N.Y.

Post by dr.giraud » Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:10 pm

Jim Roots wrote:
josemas wrote:
Well, this being Jerry Lewis, he probably had unrealistic expectations for sales. The number actually sold would probably be considered very good for a boxed set of early 1960s comedies, say similar to that for Jack Lemmon's set or Don Knotts' long-ago triple pack ((Ghost and Mr. Chicken, Reluctant Astronaut, The Love God). And yes, I would put Lewis on the same mediocre level as Knotts. In fact, I prefer Knotts and got a lot more laughs out of his 3 films than I did out of Lewis' 10 films. But my point is that Lewis probably expected to sell as many copies as Star Wars and anything less was considered "disappointing".

Too bad. There wasn't much promo for it, as far I know. Maybe a PR push would have helped matters.

Jim
I suspect it was Paramount Home Video with the unrealistic sales expectations and lack of interest. They've pretty much given up on marketing any "classic" movie that doesn't star Audrey Hepburn or John Wayne. Look at the second Martin & Lewis set; compared to the first, it's almost like they bailed on it mid-project. And then turned around and licensed MONEY FROM HOME to an outside distributor. (And it was nice that they restored PARDNERS and ARTISTS AND MODELS, but why not HOLLYWOOD OR BUST, too?)

Might Lewis find another distributor for the titles he owns, in the current DVD sales environment? Good question.
dr. giraud

User avatar
Jim Roots
Posts: 5255
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:45 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Post by Jim Roots » Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:16 am

gjohnson wrote:The problem with Don Knotts is that he is a comic actor and we were discussing a comedian.

Gary J.
That doesn't make Knotts less funny than Lewis. Any more than being a comic actor made Harold Lloyd less funny than comedian Harry Langdon.

Jim

User avatar
Bob Birchard
Posts: 1031
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:03 am
Contact:

Post by Bob Birchard » Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:12 am

MGH wrote:THE BELLBOY: No good can come of trying to explain [his] considerable virtues as a filmmaker (the precision of his shots is uncanny) to those who simply do not like him... which... must include most of humanity.
THE FAMILY JEWELS: The film drowns in a sea of empty virtuosity.
Reviews by Steven H Scheuer
My favorite quote about Jerry Lewis as a filmmaker came from a friend of mine who audite Lewis's class at USC. When i asked how Lewis was a teacher, he said: "He's not as great as he thinks he is, but he's not as full of shit as you think he is."

elalamo
Posts: 238
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:35 pm
Location: North Carolina
Contact:

Post by elalamo » Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:41 pm

I love and loathe Jerry alternately and sometimes simultaneously. Some of his gags are nothing short of brilliant. Others just strike horror into the heart. Because I'm an ac-centuate the postive kind of guy, I try to dwell on the hilarious Jerry and ignore the obnoxious one. Sometimes that works. Often not. But I would watch THE BELLBOY, THE ERRAND BOY, THE NUTTY PROFESSOR and THE LADIES MAN just about any time and laugh throughout. The others are much more iffy. And some of 'em are downright risible.

User avatar
boblipton
Posts: 13806
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:01 pm
Location: Clement Clarke Moore's Farm

Post by boblipton » Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:37 pm

No, some of them aren't risible.

Bob
The past is a foreign country. They do things differently there.
— L.P. Hartley

User avatar
MikeH0714
Posts: 139
Joined: Mon May 18, 2009 1:13 pm
Contact:

Sorry I'm late...

Post by MikeH0714 » Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:16 pm

Penfold wrote:
Einar the Lonely wrote:Good remark about Lewis' visual comedy. Here is another well-known one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7ySmnxy29Q
And yet....that sketch/sequence displays exactly the reasons why, generally speaking, I'm in the loathe category. Good comedic mime, and yet...the looks to just off-camera, the gurning expressions, all scream "Look at Me, Comedian Being Funny Here!!!" rather than let the mime tell its own story, have its own punchline, as it were. He oversells it, as if he doesn't trust the material. British contemporary Norman Wisdom did the same, and I loathe his work too. None of the great silent era comedians fell into that trap, and neither did such as French contemporary Jacques Tati; they didn't feel the need to show themselves off; they let themselves be absorbed into the film. Even when Laurel or Hardy looked at the audience via the camera, it was to express "Oh Sh*t" or "See what I have to put up with" not "Aren't I clever"
I disagree. If anything, that clip from "Who's Minding the Store" doesn't work because Lewis isn't putting his all into it... unlike his peformance of the same bit nine years earlier on "The Colgate Comedy Hour":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQM-0kaxgmE

Obviously the audience loves the mugging, judging by their reaction. The fright wig also helps. We're watching Jerry create a character, and yet the character clearly IS Jerry. Its one of the many paradoxes surrounding Lewis.

Michael

User avatar
Norma Desmond
Posts: 170
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:25 am
Location: New Zealand

Post by Norma Desmond » Sat Jan 23, 2010 1:57 pm

I'm in the loathe camp, too despite the strong pro feelings of the French (maybe he translates well into French). Jerry Lewis has claimed that Harry Langdon was his main influence; bollocks! He owes it all it all to an earlier comic idiot, Joe Pinner. Given Lewis's age, Pinner would more likely to be the influence, not the great Harry L.

Norma
I am Big; the pictures got smaller

User avatar
daveboz
Posts: 206
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:24 am
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Contact:

Post by daveboz » Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:36 am

Norma Desmond wrote:I'm in the loathe camp, too despite the strong pro feelings of the French (maybe he translates well into French). Jerry Lewis has claimed that Harry Langdon was his main influence; bollocks! He owes it all it all to an earlier comic idiot, Joe Pinner. Given Lewis's age, Pinner would more likely to be the influence, not the great Harry L.

Norma
==============

That's PENNER. Joe Penner. Mostly famous in radio.
yer pal Dave

User avatar
Norma Desmond
Posts: 170
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:25 am
Location: New Zealand

Post by Norma Desmond » Sun Jan 24, 2010 11:35 am

Tank ya. Dave.

A typo! But do you agree with my theory that Joe P is the real influence?
I am Big; the pictures got smaller

User avatar
Jim Roots
Posts: 5255
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:45 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Post by Jim Roots » Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:18 am

Norma Desmond wrote:Tank ya. Dave.

A typo! But do you agree with my theory that Joe P is the real influence?
It sure couldn't have been Langdon. His less-is-more approach to comedy is the antithesis of Lewis' approach.

Jim

gjohnson
Posts: 653
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:56 pm
Contact:

Post by gjohnson » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:59 am

...and Penner had no comedy style what so ever.
The only thing he ever influenced was for the garbageman to take out the trash.

Gary J.

Lokke Heiss
Posts: 752
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 10:25 pm

Post by Lokke Heiss » Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:55 pm

When it comes to his films the parts are greater than the sum of the whole.
I might be begging the question, but I don't love him, or loath him.

I was lucky enough to see him years ago in London in a revival of Damn Yankees, and he was terrific.

But I agree with most of the other posters about his films. Here's my take on Lewis, and the several generations of entertainers from his time and after:

It's a problem of stage vs. screen. Sure, you have people who can slip between the two, but even those people will tend to do better with one over the other.

And the hammy overacting that plagues Lewis in his movies just plain works better on a stage, where large gestures are often appreciated by far-away audience members.

But it's more than that. It's this sort of mirror-glow entertainers have--the ability to feed off the energy of a crowd, and reflect it back. There's a lot ways to describe it, but 'work the crowd' seems like a good way to put it.

You can see it in a lot of variety TV shows in the '50s and '60s. Abbott and Costello's best work (IMO) is seen in their variety show. I watch their tapes and get a glimmer about how much fun it must have been to have been there. Same with Martin and Lewis, and all the other teams. It's even true with single performers like Bob Hope. His best talent was his 'presence' (in place of a better word). You see a little in the Hope/Crosbly vehicles, as the scattershot script gave both men a chance getting close to that spontaneous sense I'm talking about. But it's still not the same thing as being there.

And I certainly saw that when Lewis played the devil in DY. I'm glad I had the chance to see him on the stage. As they say, he was 'bigger than life.'

User avatar
daveboz
Posts: 206
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:24 am
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Contact:

Post by daveboz » Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:02 pm

Norma Desmond wrote:Tank ya. Dave.

A typo! But do you agree with my theory that Joe P is the real influence?
================

I've seen a couple of Joe Penner's '30s movies and I was never once reminded of Jerry Lewis. Did Jerry indicate that Joe Penner was an influence?
yer pal Dave

Jethro
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:42 pm

Re: Love Him or Loathe Him Lewis

Post by Jethro » Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:52 pm

Jerry Lewis was not a carbon copy of Joe Penner or anyone else. However, it seemss highly likely that Penner was an influence playing the "man child" if you will. The first time I saw Penner in a film, I was reminded of the early Lewis characters during the Dean Martin era.

User avatar
odinthor
Posts: 998
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:16 pm
Location: Southern California
Contact:

Re: Love Him or Loathe Him Lewis

Post by odinthor » Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:10 pm

A few months ago, I began a visit or revisit to quite a good chunk of Jerry Lewis’s total œuvre (not that he’s done yet!) with the idea of providing eventually a “scorecard” of the kind I did for whom I'm sure everyone considers his soul-mate in cinema, Ingmar Bergman. I still have quite a way to go, and, what’s more, I want to re-watch two or three times the ones which were new to me before venturing overall commentary. However, after viewings of The Patsy separated by 50 years, I’d like to solicit your comments on that film, and make just a few of my own.

In the early and mid-1960s, I was a big Lewis fan. I then found such shows—still considered his classics—as The Bellboy, The Ladies Man, The Errand Boy, and The Nutty Professor to be hilariously unsurpassable. I can recall my zestful anticipation when The Patsy came out . . . and equally recall being at the time sharply disappointed as I walked out of the theater after having seen it. Something in its atmosphere seemed different . . . unpleasant . . . dark . . . Things seemed on-track again with The Disorderly Orderly and, eventually, The Big Mouth; but something about The Patsy nagged at me.

It was thus with mixed feelings that I began to watch The Patsy again after half a century. Yes, it was still “different,” with a somber undertone to the frenzy . . . and yet now, with the hilarity, it had, I realized, a sophistication and worldliness which, as a youth, I had no way of tapping into; and this sophistication and worldliness disappeared from the Lewis movies which followed. At this point, without declaring it perfect, I can say that I think it is by far his richest movie, with some genuinely touching moments, top-notch lunacy, wry commentary on the ways of Hollywood, dedicated support from his cast (even though, as I understand, Peter Lorre, soon to die, didn’t like his experience on this movie, and I have the feeling that a larger participation by his character in the proceedings was cut at some point, it’s still clear that, in at least one scene, he’s giving his all), good camera work, and clever writing. Lewis’s nightclub scene will remind some of something similar in the much later Funny Bones.

I find this an engaging, impressive film. After seeing it cheek-to-jowl recently with others considered his classics, and others definitely not considered his classics, I’d rate this as his best. You who do not automatically loathe Lewis: What are your thoughts on this show? In my opinion, it deserves a general—and more favorable!—reassessment by filmdom.
_____
"She confessed subsequently to Cottard that she found me remarkably enthusiastic; he replied that I was too emotional, that I needed sedatives, and that I ought to take up knitting." —Marcel Proust (Cities of the Plain).

User avatar
Gumlegs
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:43 pm

Re: Love Him or Loathe Him Lewis

Post by Gumlegs » Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:34 pm

I would draw a distinction between his live work on, say "The Colgate Comedy Hour" with Dean Martin, and anything filmed.

And of course we all know "The Caddy" trailer out-takes ...

busby1959
Posts: 728
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2014 12:12 pm
Location: Cathedral City, California

Re:

Post by busby1959 » Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:48 pm

Mike Gebert wrote:Here's my favorite Lewis moment-- go to about 4 minutes in. It's a perfect distillation of Tashlin's style, in that he's both making a genuine Hollywood musical number and the Bugs Bunny sendup of one at the same time, while Lewis does little echoes of Chaplin and Harpo and even Keaton (the implacability of his attempts to go up the stairs, even when he knows what's coming) throughout.

Artists and Models: Innamorata

It's pretty much perfect, although did any major female ingenue ever have an odder shaped body than Shirley Maclaine? She's built like a spatula, but adorable nonetheless.
I always thought she had a peculiar figure as well, although I do like her very much. As for Lewis, given the choice of like or loathe, I would have to say loathe - although I do have a soft spot for THE DISORDERLY ORDERLY. However, that's mainly because of Glenda Farrell and Kathleen Freeman.

User avatar
westegg
Posts: 1365
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2008 9:13 am

Re: Love Him or Loathe Him Lewis

Post by westegg » Fri Nov 21, 2014 3:24 pm

I read somewhere Lewis wsas inspired in part by Harry Ritz.

Anyway, I have a selective appreciation for Lewis, and he shines in Scorsese's KING OF COMEDY.

User avatar
s.w.a.c.
Posts: 3934
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:27 pm
Location: The Land of Evangeline

Re:

Post by s.w.a.c. » Sat Nov 22, 2014 9:42 am

FrankFay wrote:the problem with Don Knotts is that they took a superb supporting player and tried to make him a lead. On top of that is wasn't the best era for comedy, most of the scripts tended to be a subtle as a blow to the head. He comes off well in "The Incredible Mr Limpet" and not just because it's animated.
I just watched the lone starring vehicle of Soupy Sales, Birds Do It, which makes Don Knotts look like Chaplin by comparison.
Twinkletoes wrote:Oh, ya big blister!

User avatar
earlytalkiebuffRob
Posts: 7994
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:53 am
Location: Southsea, England

Re: Love Him or Loathe Him Lewis

Post by earlytalkiebuffRob » Sat Nov 22, 2014 4:02 pm

In the 1970s I certainly found a lot of Lewis very hard to take, though admittedly a lot of this was from TV, and b/w at that. Guess his main period was over by the time I was visiting cinemas on my own, though I did blow a chance to see WAY, WAY OUT at an all-nighter, mainly because I thought if I tried watching the lot I'd be struggling to stay awake. Although I quite enjoyed THAT'S MY BOY, THE DELICATE DELINQUENT and THE NUTTY PROFESSOR, the real eye-opener was THE KING OF COMEDY, which was barely released in cinemas over here in England and was shown on TV very quickly.

Though far from typical, I liked it a lot at the time and remember trying to persuade my brother, who detested Lewis, that it was worth seeing. No dice, and his loss, I guess. What was difficult to put over was that you didn't have to like his manic style to appreciate his role as a popular TV host. I shall have to give it another look (only saw it the once) in case it disappoints, but it was certainly a change of pace for him.

coolcatdaddy
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:05 pm
Location: Mebane, NC
Contact:

Re: Love Him or Loathe Him Lewis

Post by coolcatdaddy » Sat Nov 22, 2014 9:40 pm

Lewis was a one-man goldmine for Paramount in his prime, but, at least in my opinion, his work hasn't held up well. As comedy and films "grew up" in the 60s, Lewis kept going for the "family" market - slapstick for the kids.

Even in his best work - films like "The Patsy" or "Nutty Professor" - it's like he's trying to hard to please and always seems to be playing to the back row of the theater. This works well on the "Colgate Comedy Hour" when Lewis is in front of an audience and you're basically seeing a record of a stage performance; it's remarkably overbearing a couple of feet a way from a VistaVision camera. It's sad that he didn't "dial down" the personality and slapstick more often.

As a director, though, I think he's quite skilled. If Lewis had decided to stay behind the camera and retire from acting in the 60s and could have managed to change with the times, he could have been the heir to Frank Tashlin.

Post Reply