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After years of trying to obtain and watch the 1930's Laurel & Hardy two-reelers, I finally purchased the 21-disc Region 2 set that's available in the UK, but not here in the States. [The cost, including shipping, was about $75, or roughly $3.50 per disc. I reset the DVD drive in my PC for Region 2, and have been watching these happily ever after.]

This is because the rights to the Hal Roach Studio library have been continually sliced and diced over the years, and were eventually scattered to the winds. Add to that various corporate mergers and reorganizations, and you have companies like Hallmark Cards acquiring certain Laurel & Hardy films simply by chance, and that it apparently has absolutely zero interest in preserving or promoting.

In the 1970's, beautiful 16mm prints of these shorts were available from Blackhawk Films, but these became unaffordable when the price of silver skyrocketed, and then Blackhawk and later Film Classic Associates ceased to exist. I understand that much of the original Roach nitrate elements, including some L&H material, now resides at LOC, but without the consent of the copyright owner(s), I guess not much can be done.

In the U.S., a few classic L&H features are presently available (Babes in Toyland, Sons of the Desert, Fra Diavolo, Way Out West, Blockheads). There are also a few subpar transfers of some great shorts (The Music Box, Busy Bodies) and the subpar Fox 1940's features. Recently some of the Robert Youngson anthologies (When Comedy was King, Golden Age of Comedy) have been re-released. But to my knowledge, the cream of their 1920's and 1930's work is still not available on DVD (Laughing Gravy, Hog Wild, Helpmates, Perfect Day, Big Business, Two Tars, etc.). Ditto on the "foreign language" versions of these shorts that were produced in the early sound era.

This material has surfaced from time to time on AMC (when they were still actually running classic movies) and on TCM, but unless you were real quick with the video recorder, you wouldn't see them. I see that TCM is now running Charley Chase shorts and some Thelma Todd/Patsy Kelly shorts, so perhaps there is hope for another TCM release on DVD of these and other Roach material, including the L&H shorts.

Say what you will about the old "studio system," but at least each studio maintained control over its own library and the films were usually centrally located and maintained. Some studios (Paramount, Monogram) also didn't care about preserving their output, but at least most of them did.

The fact that much prime L&H material is not available in the U.S., the country of its production, is a sad testament to the present situation, in my opinion. If anyone has any information to the contrary, it would be welcome! SETH

I know, it's a crazy, sad situation.

I'm curious though about the current German DVD editions of L& H (otherwise known as Dick und Doof); anybody have it?

That 21 disc set is really nice. The quality is generally good and at least a substantial amount of their work is represented.

The only thing that annoys me is that the discs are presented as themes instead of chronological order. So you get a talkie and a silent and sometimes they are basically the same because the talkie is a remake of the silent! This is fine except being on the same disc is somewhat repetitive.

I also stay far away from the re-colored shorts.....

Why are these shorts not available in the US?
I didn't realise that this was the case.

The rights to the Roach L&H talkies have been jumping around the last 20 years or so. In the early 90s they were with RHI, who did a pretty good job getting them out by doing deals with Video Treasures and Cabin Fever, (although the acursed colorized versions were in the Cabin Fever releases) and they were shown on the AMC cable channel.

RHI also owned the rights to many of the Hallmark Hall of Fame programs. In order to get those shows, Hallmark bought RHI. They had absolutely no interest in the Roach library. They at one point wanted to junk all the original 35mm material since they were paying the storage costs. Luckily, the UCLA Archive took the material and it is now being well cared for.

Hallmark did license two DVDs that had sub-standard versions of the better L&H films and they did run the films on the Hallmark Channel for a while.

A couple of years ago, Robert Halmi re-aquired RHI and the Roach library. Since then, Genius put out the Little Rascals set and much of the Roach library was licensed to Turner Classic Movies cable channel.

Hopefully, some company will want to license the L&H films and do a good region 1 collection on DVD or Blu-Ray.

I remember when the shorts aired on Hallmark under the title "Leonard Maltin Presents" They set aside an hour block and usually showed a Laurel and Hardy short or two paired with a short from the Charley Chase, Todd-Pitts, Todd-Kelly, or The Boy Friends series. It was a great idea and they had nice introductions by Maltin. It was my first real exposure to these other Hal Roach series and my only regret is that I lost a VHS full of shorts (that gives you an idea how long its been) that I havent been able to catch on TCM. I wish TCM would consider doing this with the shorts!

I haven't had a chance to look at all of the shorts in the 21-disc set, but from what I have seen, the quality ranges from very good to OK and not so great. It does seem that they made some effort to obtain decent prints in most cases, unlike the recent Hallmark releases that were done for Wal-Mart, using video transfers and poor dupes.

Of course, a lot depends on what original material is still available after all these years. Because the L&H shorts were so popular, they were continually issued in one format or another, with the usual resulting wear and tear on the film elements. There are also some films which have gone missing (the original negative of Laughing Gravy, the third reel of the Music Box) or simply deteriorated into dust (Hats Offs and Battle of the Century).

But for a set that claims to be "restored," I think this offering has a ways to go. Several of the films have the Film Classics reissue logo, and at least one (Below Zero) has partial spocket holes showing -- a little sloppy, no? I also see plenty of splices, torn sprocket holes, reel changeover marks, scratches and whatnot, so it's hard to believe the "restored" claim. I know the term "restored" can often cover a lot of ground, but it doesn't look like much ground was covered here. Maybe they only meant that they ran each print through a set of rewinds with a cloth soaked in Vitafilm before they digitized it?

Still, it's nice to see shorts that I haven't seen in decades (Helpmates) and also nice to see many of the original Metro/Roach opening titles, with their Art Deco backgrounds and fancy optical wipes. Also nice to see the foreign language versions, which few people have ever been able to access. Even if I had to order the darn set from Amazon UK to do it.

So I'm not complaining. But I do wish that SOMEBODY would properly restore and preserve these films, and then make them generally available again, and do it here in the U.S. as well. SETH

To do a restoration like you are hoping, there have to be elements to go back to. I talked to some of the UCLA folks when I was in LA this last week. From what I was told, many of the elements are either missing or in bad shape. I'd like to see as much restored as possible, but a video company is going to have to pony up the bucks. In this economy, I'm not sure we will see that.

I'm probably missing the answer in there somewhere but...why are the shorts available in Europe and not in the US?

Because in the US ownership split among various owners, some of whom -- Hallmark in particular -- have no interest in pursuing a dvd issue, while in Europe, that is not the case.

Bob

The UK set that I picked up has the Universal Pictures logo on it, of all things.

The L&H shorts have been available over the years on 16mm film from Blackhawk and on VHS from a variety of sources (Nostalgia Merchant, Cabin Fever). But they are not presently available on DVD in the US from an official licensee, as far as I'm aware.

Of course, it's easy for me to suggest that someone ELSE put up their hard-earned money to preserve and merchandise these shorts. But I'm just a consumer and a viewer, not a producer. SETH

The Shorts and their non availability in the US is also discussed here:

viewtopic.php?t=6257&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Hallmark did release two single DVD compilations of Laurel & Hardy shorts and features in the US. They may be out of print at this time, but many public libraries have them.

Marr&Colton wrote:Hallmark did release two single DVD compilations of Laurel & Hardy shorts and features in the US. They may be out of print at this time, but many public libraries have them.

Really? What films were on them?

Jim

Really? What films were on them?

Jim[/quote]

Vol. 1- SONS OF THE DESERT, THE MUSIC BOX, ANOTHER FINE MESS, COUNTY HOSPITAL & BUSY BODIES.

Vol. 2- WAY OUT WEST, BLOCKHEADS & CHICKENS COME HOME.

It appears they are out of print but available (and expensive) from second party dealers on Amazon.

Quality isn't the greatest but OK. They obviously used old tape masters. MUSIC BOX has tape glitches and the image even rolls at one point.

Yeah, they have fades to commercials, too.

The story was that they only came to be because the video buyer at Wal-Mart leaned on them to supply some Laurel & Hardy product based on customer requests and his own interest in them.

That kind of gives you an idea of how difficult and self-defeating the attitude of L&H's present owners has been.

In reading through some of the links provided in these threads, I found a very thorough and knowledgeable review of the UK 21-disc set at http://www.laurelandhardy.org/newDVDREV.html.

I would have bought the set even if I had read the review first, on the theory that having something is better than having nothing at all. While the set does have some excellent quality prints, it's also clear that it has a way to go before making the claim that the films have been "restored."

It's ironic in a way; Laurel & Hardy may have been TOO popular, causing continued demand for the shorts and the resulting excessive wear and tear on the film elements. Of course, that probably could have been minimized or avoided with proper handling and the creation of dupe negatives, but that probably would have cost more money than Roach or Film Classics wanted to spend at the time. Couple that situation with some haphazard storage techniques, careless handling, overly complex licensing arrangements, a few bankruptcies and some corporate indifference, and you have the present "Fine Mess." SETH

It's ironic in a way; Laurel & Hardy may have been TOO popular, causing continued demand for the shorts and the resulting excessive wear and tear on the film elements.

Hence Richard Roberts' rule for short comedies, the worse the comedy, the better the surviving material....

BixB wrote:
Vol. 1- SONS OF THE DESERT, THE MUSIC BOX, ANOTHER FINE MESS, COUNTY HOSPITAL & BUSY BODIES.

Vol. 2- WAY OUT WEST, BLOCKHEADS & CHICKENS COME HOME.

Oh, not the silent two-reelers. Rats.

You know who might have great elements? The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. They were showing the two-reelers every Saturday at 6 pm for several summers in the 1970s, and might still have them in their Toronto archives.

Jim

Oh, not the silent two-reelers. Rats.

You know who might have great elements? The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. They were showing the two-reelers every Saturday at 6 pm for several summers in the 1970s, and might still have them in their Toronto archives.

Those 2-reel silents looked very good (at least on NTSC television) and had wonderful piano scores. They ran on Winnipeg's CBWT in the late 70s or early 80s and since our cable company carried that channel I was able to get some on Beta tape (wonder if they'll still play?). It would be very nice indeed if CBC had actual film prints rather than tape transfers, as 1970s tape transfers would not hold up for even DVD standards let alone a BluRay release today.

--Christopher Jacobs
http://hpr1.com/film
http://www.und.edu/instruct/cjacobs

Christopher Jacobs wrote:I was able to get some on Beta tape (wonder if they'll still play?)

I still have quite a few Betas, up to 30 years old; the great majority still play, although they're filled with dropouts and color noise. I'm gradually transferring them to DVDR, but it's a slow process. I still hang onto the originals - who knows how long the DVDRs may last?

Hence Richard Roberts' rule for short comedies, the worse the comedy, the better the surviving material....

Interesting rule, Mike, it might be very accurate!

Another quirk about the L&H shorts -- while the English-language versions were getting worn out from use, the obsolete foreign-language versions sat quietly in the MGM vaults for over 50 years. When they were finally unearthed, they were in pristine condition (other than the fact that the folks at Hallmark had no idea what they were, and were going to discard them).

But for such a fragile medium, nitrate film actually turned out to be pretty good after all, didn't it! SETH

Christopher Jacobs wrote:

Oh, not the silent two-reelers. Rats.

You know who might have great elements? The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. They were showing the two-reelers every Saturday at 6 pm for several summers in the 1970s, and might still have them in their Toronto archives.

Those 2-reel silents looked very good (at least on NTSC television) and had wonderful piano scores. They ran on Winnipeg's CBWT in the late 70s or early 80s and since our cable company carried that channel I was able to get some on Beta tape (wonder if they'll still play?). It would be very nice indeed if CBC had actual film prints rather than tape transfers, as 1970s tape transfers would not hold up for even DVD standards let alone a BluRay release today.

--Christopher Jacobs
http://hpr1.com/film
http://www.und.edu/instruct/cjacobs

Exactly my situation! I recorded them on Beta from CBLT, the Toronto affiliate of CBC. Still have the Betas. Copied several of them to a VHS in the 1990s.

There must actually be hundreds if not thousands of copies of the two-reelers out there on 16 mm, 8 mm, Beta, and VHS. If there were some way of pooling them to get the best-quality clips from collectors around the world, we might end up with a better master than Hallmark has now!

Jim

Jim Roots wrote:There must actually be hundreds if not thousands of copies of the two-reelers out there on 16 mm, 8 mm, Beta, and VHS. If there were some way of pooling them to get the best-quality clips from collectors around the world, we might end up with a better master than Hallmark has now!

First of all, Hallmark no longer owns the library. It's now owned by RHI, who has done a pretty good job with it.

I've got 16mm prints of all the Hal Roach L&H shorts but one, and while they look excellent for projecting in my living room, are not good enough to make a really good, sharp DVD or Blu-Ray. I think there is 35mm material to make these DVDs at UCLA, but it's still being assessed and preserved. It's in pretty ragged shape, so if someone were to take the job on now, it would be very expensive to have to restore some of the titles. The condition of the 35mm elements for the L&H silents is more tragic.

Jim Reid wrote:

Jim Roots wrote:There must actually be hundreds if not thousands of copies of the two-reelers out there on 16 mm, 8 mm, Beta, and VHS. If there were some way of pooling them to get the best-quality clips from collectors around the world, we might end up with a better master than Hallmark has now!

First of all, Hallmark no longer owns the library. It's now owned by RHI, who has done a pretty good job with it.

I've got 16mm prints of all the Hal Roach L&H shorts but one, and while they look excellent for projecting in my living room, are not good enough to make a really good, sharp DVD or Blu-Ray. I think there is 35mm material to make these DVDs at UCLA, but it's still being assessed and preserved. It's in pretty ragged shape, so if someone were to take the job on now, it would be very expensive to have to restore some of the titles. The condition of the 35mm elements for the L&H silents is more tragic.

Well, that's kind of my point. Suppose the elements of, let's say, Early To Bed are worn-out and fragile. My Beta of the CBC broadcast is absolutely beautiful. If CBC itself doesn't still have the material they used for their broadcast 35 years ago, I would willingly surrender my Beta for use in helping to piece together a replacement master, and you could contribute your 16mm copy to fill in gaps, and somebody else probably has a few clips that CBC cut to make room for commercials...

I don't care if it has to be done piecemeal. I just want a complete set of the boys' silent two-reelers.

Jim

Well, that's kind of my point. Suppose the elements of, let's say, Early To Bed are worn-out and fragile. My Beta of the CBC broadcast is absolutely beautiful. If CBC itself doesn't still have the material they used for their broadcast 35 years ago, I would willingly surrender my Beta for use in helping to piece together a replacement master, and you could contribute your 16mm copy to fill in gaps, and somebody else probably has a few clips that CBC cut to make room for commercials...

Except that any "official" Blackhawk or Film Classics 16mm print, despite their lack of original credit title cards, is likely to be of drastically better picture quality (even if scratched and splicy--that would be print condition rather than quality) than even the best Beta or VHS tapes off of 1970s-80s television. Even an 8mm print has more resolution than typical NTSC or PAL video unless you've got a pristine Beta-SP transfer, which is still nowhere near as sharp as film or HD video. We'll probably have to wait for a restoration by UCLA or somebody from the original materials, supplementing those with private collector sources that can be scanned in hi-def to make a digital IP suitable for making new 35mm printing negatives.

--Christopher Jacobs
http://www.und.edu/instruct/cjacobs
http://hpr1.com/film

I watched that CBC series repeatedly as well, and I'm sure that they simply used 16mm elements licensed or purchased mainly from Blackhawk, replacing beginning and end with their own credit sequences; I seem to recall a credit for the Eastin-Phelan Corporation. Often the Blackhawk white-on-black replacement titles and introductory text were left in (eg.,"BIG BUSINESS was originally released April 20, 1929, in those twilight days of the silent screen..."). I agree that Horace Lapp's accompaniment was superb.

I believe that Canadian broadcasters, including the networks, used 16mm (and tape) exclusively until sometime in the 80's.

Gregbert wrote:That 21 disc set is really nice. The quality is generally good and at least a substantial amount of their work is represented.

The only thing that annoys me is that the discs are presented as themes instead of chronological order. So you get a talkie and a silent and sometimes they are basically the same because the talkie is a remake of the silent! This is fine except being on the same disc is somewhat repetitive.

I also stay far away from the re-colored shorts.....

I second that expression,Gregbert !

I just LOVE the idea of a simple, chronological order of films,

what is so difficult about this? ..is beyond me.

I had purchased most CabinFever releases of the Our Gang shorts and have a very bitter-sweet conclusion on the delivery of the Leonard Malton Host- bit which comes with it(although some of the information he shares with the viewer on the Cabin Fever releases are informative, I just don't like his personalty treatment with these things...this is just my personal opinion though)

If anyone out there in here.. in NitrateVille knows of how I can buy the Hal Roach films of L & H of the years 1929-35... I will fully appreciate this..or do I have to do all the homework myself[?]

other than that...everyone have the nice day

Christopher Jacobs wrote:

Oh, not the silent two-reelers. Rats.

You know who might have great elements? The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. They were showing the two-reelers every Saturday at 6 pm for several summers in the 1970s, and might still have them in their Toronto archives.

Those 2-reel silents looked very good (at least on NTSC television) and had wonderful piano scores. They ran on Winnipeg's CBWT in the late 70s or early 80s and since our cable company carried that channel I was able to get some on Beta tape (wonder if they'll still play?). It would be very nice indeed if CBC had actual film prints rather than tape transfers, as 1970s tape transfers would not hold up for even DVD standards let alone a BluRay release today.

--Christopher Jacobs
http://hpr1.com/film
http://www.und.edu/instruct/cjacobs

This much could be very true, BUT !!... ANYthing in the way of these shorts could be considered in a final version of a real restore of these films!

I have just had word from Amazon.de that the L&H Stolen Jools set is now delayed further to sometime around April 2011. This joins Columbia's Rita Hayworth box set which has just been delayed this week yet again. In either case no reason has been given.