Who do you think mirrored Norma Desmond.....

[MWB]

In Sunset Boulevard?

While I don't think it's indicative of any one actress per se, I reckon Mae Murray fits the bill.

[Danny]

The first thought that came to my mind was the apocryphal quote attributed to Mae Murray, when she saw SUNSET BLVD:

"None of us floozies was THAT nuts."

Danny

[Gagman 66]

It's been said that the character was primarily based on Norma Talmadge.

[greta de groat]

It's been said that the character was primarily based on Norma Talmadge.

That has been mentioned, probably primarily because the character is named Norma. Other correlation: she remained wealthy and didn't lose all of her money like the other stereotype of silent film stars. Other than that there is zero relationship between the character and Norma Talmadge.

greta

[drednm]

Well it's an interesting question. Mae Murray maybe but in 1949 when this was being written? Many of Murray's famous loony behaviors came later than this. I'm sure Wilder et al. were very careful not to make Norma look too much like any of the living silent stars, most of whom would have still been under 60. The Swanson stuff is obvious but the rest is probably pure invention.

[Einar the Lonely]

I think Norma Desmondism was actually invented by Sunset Boulevard, just as the KKK was invented by BOAN ... only after SB silent film stars started to become normadesmondish... at least occasionally, and Gloria Swanson certainly not among them.

[augustinius]

Certainly post SB one can see traces of Mary Pickford in that sort of secluded in-a-bubble life.

[T0m M]

Norma Shearer's name is also often linked with the Desmond character. While there is some resemblance, most of the similar traits appeared after the release of Sunset Boulevard and were not as extreme.

Garbo's name is also mentioned but I'm not knowledgeable enough on the actress to comment on any similarities.

[Changsham]

I could never see an obvious identifiable candidate. I tend to think Norma Desmond as more of a composite of perhaps quite a few silent stars. All those names mentioned would be likely contributors to the character with perhaps Mary Pickford the closest match IMO. But then again who knows what the script writers were thinking.

[BankofAmericasSweetheart]

Mary Pickford.... since it was written with her in mind for the part.

She declined the role, primarily because she thought it too offensive to her. Can you imagine the conversation? "Hey do you mind playing some hacked out has-been silent movie star? No reason.... just seems like you fit the bill no offense"

[drednm]

Sam Staggs' excellent book on SB gives two versions of the Mary Pickford selection. Wilder said that when he and Brackett went to see her, she was drunk and turned them down. Scott Eyman claims Pickford was interested but demanded the Gillis part rewritten as a supporting role.

Staggs then notes the Pickford (according to Eyman) lived her reclusive life with a small circle of friends. For these friends she gave parties for the likes of Lillian and Dorothy Gish and D.W. Griffith (waxworks) and that after dinner Pickford would put on little shows, playing all the parts (Norma doing Chaplin).

Staggs goes on the say that Pickford, Mae West, and Pola Negri were all considered and rejected before they had written the script.Once Swanson was chosen, the script was written around her but still using the original ideas about Norma.

As for Pickford, she might have had her last real chance at a comeback in Life with Father, a role she wanted and would have been excellent in. But the producers played it safe with the popular Irene Dunne. I vaguely remember Pickford toyed with starring in Storm Center, a film that starred Bette Davis, but I'm not sure how interested she really was.

[Frederica]

I think Wilder and Brackett made Norma Desmond up all on their lonesomes.

[drednm]

I tend to agree. Bits and pieces of many but Swanson made it her own. The mind boggles to think what Mae West would have done with the part.

[greta de groat]

ole.

Staggs then notes the Pickford (according to Eyman) lived her reclusive life with a small circle of friends. For these friends she gave parties for the likes of Lillian and Dorothy Gish and D.W. Griffith (waxworks) and that after dinner Pickford would put on little shows, playing all the parts (Norma doing Chaplin).

Does having a small circle of long time friends make you reclusive? That would describe a lot of middle aged and older people.

greta

[barafan]

The mind boggles to think what Mae West would have done with the part.

Either in Staggs' book - a great read, by the way - or in the libretto for the musical, it's mentioned that Brackett & Wilder turned down West because she wanted Norma rewritten so as to be much more of a kittenish vixen and a comic figure rather than the operatic heroine of Swanson's interpretation. I believe that, as B&W were discussing the script with West, they mentioned Norma's age and West replied that she never played a character older than 30, at which point the two men politely got up and left.

[augustinius]

ole.

Staggs then notes the Pickford (according to Eyman) lived her reclusive life with a small circle of friends. For these friends she gave parties for the likes of Lillian and Dorothy Gish and D.W. Griffith (waxworks) and that after dinner Pickford would put on little shows, playing all the parts (Norma doing Chaplin).

Does having a small circle of long time friends make you reclusive? That would describe a lot of middle aged and older people.

greta

Perhaps in context with her life in the 20s. Before, she was the queen of Hollywood and the center of the society. Later, she moved to a small group. We of course also have hindsight which saw her eventually become a true recluse, staying in her bedroom for most of the day. When you see the entire sweep of her life, in that context, she did become reclusive, and for her that migration to a small circle was a key step along the way to being a hermit as she shrank her world on purpose.

[drednm]

Pickford never went out and was addicted to alcohol.

[westegg]

I'm reminded of the presumably true story of Buster Keaton attending a reunion of silent stars at Pickfair in 1956. Keaton was amazed to realize he was the only one there who had heard of Elvis Presley!

[drednm]

LOL.... I wonder how true this is, but it's funny. When you look at the careers of the aging silent stars, only a handful stayed in the business and kept working. Certainly Swanson and Gish were among the most visible as the decades passed. By 1950 the great majority were dead or totally out of the business. Others, like Mae Marsh and Bessie Love kept active in bit parts.

[westegg]

I was surprised to see Bessie Love at a gaming table in the 007 film, ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE (1969).

[drednm]

Bessie Love turned up in a bunch of terrific films: The Ritz, The Barefoot Contessa, Isadora, and especially Nowhere to Go.

[Roseha]

. Keaton was amazed to realize he was the only one there who had heard of Elvis Presley!

Somewhere - I'm pretty sure it was in one of his biographies - Buster was quoted as being amazed that some of his fellow silent stars "haven't even heard a Beatles record."

[westegg]

Those were some dull parties he went to!

I'm almost certain the Presley anecdote was the actual reference, since it was observed at a Pickford gathering--and I don't think Pickford had such things after the '50s.

Either way, an amusing story.

[Wm. Charles Morrow]

Those were some dull parties he went to!

I'm almost certain the Presley anecdote was the actual reference, since it was observed at a Pickford gathering--and I don't think Pickford had such things after the '50s.

Either way, an amusing story.

It's amusing, but it also points up an important difference between those who, like Keaton, continued to work in show business and follow developments, and those who dropped away, either by choice or otherwise, and dwell in a pre-1930 bubble. It would seem that Norma Desmond wasn't based on any one individual, but rather on those embittered former stars (and there must have been several models to choose from) who withdrew from the business and from the modern world entirely. In the '50s Buster was doing TV spots and commercials and occasional movie cameos, and I'm sure he continued to read the trade papers. Elvis was the biggest thing in show business at the time, and it seems to me that when Keaton asked his fellow veterans at the party about him, he was testing them in a way. He was checking to see who was still "with it" and who wasn't.

One of the many well-observed moments in Sunset Boulevard comes when Norma inadvertently reveals (to the muted surprise of Joe Gillis) that she thinks Garbo is still making movies, nine years after Garbo had retired. If the film had been made in 1956, she might have said: "Elvis who?"

[greta de groat]

It's amusing, but it also points up an important difference between those who, like Keaton, continued to work in show business and follow developments, and those who dropped away, either by choice or otherwise, and dwell in a pre-1930 bubble. It would seem that Norma Desmond wasn't based on any one individual, but rather on those embittered former stars (and there must have been several models to choose from) who withdrew from the business and from the modern world entirely.

Just because someone didn't keep up with current events doesn't mean they were embittered. My popular culture references pretty much stop when i stopped watching TV in the 70s (when you all are talking about the 80s pop music on the Moroder Metropolis--i've never heard of these performers). I'm not proud of my ignorace, but i just have other things i'm paying attention to. Maybe retired stars just moved on with their lives, saw their friends, raised their families, played golf, maybe went to a movie sometimes but didn't read the entertainment section of the newspaper. It's really easy to drift away from the current scene. And, frankly, filmmaking probably became tedious after a while unless you really had a drive to do that as your life's work, like Lillian Gish or Bette Davis. Buster and a lot of other folks who kept their hands in didn't have the luxury of retirement because they needed the money. People who didn't need the money and didn't need the fame and were tired of the lifestyle could and did retire and likely lost interest pretty quickly in the current state of the industry.

greta

[Wm. Charles Morrow]

It's amusing, but it also points up an important difference between those who, like Keaton, continued to work in show business and follow developments, and those who dropped away, either by choice or otherwise, and dwell in a pre-1930 bubble. It would seem that Norma Desmond wasn't based on any one individual, but rather on those embittered former stars (and there must have been several models to choose from) who withdrew from the business and from the modern world entirely.

Just because someone didn't keep up with current events doesn't mean they were embittered. My popular culture references pretty much stop when i stopped watching TV in the 70s (when you all are talking about the 80s pop music on the Moroder Metropolis--i've never heard of these performers). I'm not proud of my ignorace, but i just have other things i'm paying attention to. Maybe retired stars just moved on with their lives, saw their friends, raised their families, played golf, maybe went to a movie sometimes but didn't read the entertainment section of the newspaper. It's really easy to drift away from the current scene. And, frankly, filmmaking probably became tedious after a while unless you really had a drive to do that as your life's work, like Lillian Gish or Bette Davis. Buster and a lot of other folks who kept their hands in didn't have the luxury of retirement because they needed the money. People who didn't need the money and didn't need the fame and were tired of the lifestyle could and did retire and likely lost interest pretty quickly in the current state of the industry.

greta

Agreed, ignorance of what's happening in current show business doesn't necessarily mean an ex-performer is embittered, but I was speaking of possible models for the character Norma Desmond. There are plenty of examples of those who left the movies and enjoyed perfectly happy lives -- Colleen Moore comes to mind. From what I gather, she was a lot happier and more fulfilled in later life than she was at the peak of her stardom. And God knows keeping up with the latest in the entertainment world isn't in itself important, or a sign that someone is still functioning happily. But the Elvis anecdote is significant because he was a phenomenon who transcended the usual entertainment coverage. In '56 you really had to make an effort to ignore him, as with the Beatles in 1964. So (assuming this story is accurate) I think Keaton was testing to see which of his contemporaries were "Norma Desmonds" and which were not. If Colleen Moore was at the party I bet she knew who Elvis was.

[westegg]

From what I read about Keaton in his later years, he was always watching TV, so I assume he was aware of pop culture trends. On a related note, I read a letter written by Stan Laurel in which he spoke highly of Jackie Mason on The Ed Sullivan Show, so it's interesting to know he was catching new comics.

Sometimes I wonder if former silent stars of a certain age were quick to even watch TV. In 1950 Norma Desmond didn't have a TV in sight, and one could speculate if the film was done later she'd have been seen watching her old films on one. Reminds me of a scene in WHATEVER HAPPENED TO BABY JANE, with Joan Crawford as "Blanche" criticizing an old movie of hers on TV.

It's also interesting to note that Gloria Swanson herself was the antithesis of her Norma Desmond character in real life, very much someone not trapped in her past.

[BankofAmericasSweetheart]

While not stating fact, the idea that she would be that ignorant about Elvis and The Beatles is unlikely. Pickford actually kept up with the trade papers and watched television a lot. She must have watched films because she seemed to know who Marlon Brando was in that 1959 interview I listened to online. She was still involved with UA until she finally sold her shares in 1956. She read the paper everyday and watched her favorite television shows, Bonanza, I Love Lucy, and some comedy variety shows Buddy Rogers liked that featured popular culture.

If she told Buster Keaton she didn't know these people were, she was probably joking or drunk or both....

[Wm. Charles Morrow]

For what it’s worth I’ve traced those Elvis/Beatles anecdotes to their respective sources. In keeping with the larger topic of this thread we might think of this sub-theme as “Aging Silent Stars Who Followed Current Pop Culture (unlike Norma Desmond) versus Those Who Did Not (the Norma types).”

Pickford’s party is described in Marion Meade’s Keaton biography, pages 272-3 of the hardcover edition. The party took place at Pickfair on Easter Sunday of 1956, and it’s said that Mary invited not only stars from her era but also supporting players and studio personnel. In addition to Buster & Eleanor the guest list included Harold Lloyd (and Mildred Davis, presumably), Francis X. Bushman, Marion Davies, Hedda Hopper, and Ramon Novarro. According to Meade, Buster looked forward to the party beforehand but once he was there, he was bored and uncomfortable, and found he had little in common with his fellow guests. The bio says: “Afterward he would recall that some of the guests had never heard an Elvis Presley record--in fact, he had to explain who Presley was.”

Based on that version of the story, it sounds like Buster was trying to find common ground for conversation, and must have attempted to discuss Elvis because he was red-hot at the time, as well as highly controversial. While it’s difficult to picture any of the people on that list enjoying rock ‘n’ roll records (can you imagine Hedda Hopper digging Bo Diddley?) it would be interesting to know who was aware of Elvis and who wasn’t. Hopper was still a working columnist of course, and had to follow current events for professional reasons. And although Harold Lloyd retired from show business after the Diddlebock film I believe he followed the entertainment scene more closely than some of the others.

The reference to The Beatles comes from the last Keaton interview published during his lifetime, a piece by Rex Reed printed in the New York Times in October of 1965. Buster says he once went to a party at Pickfair on Easter Sunday and tried to have fun, but found he had nothing to talk about with his contemporaries, who hadn’t kept up with the times. He told Reed: “Some of them had never heard a Beatles record.” I would guess that in retelling this story to Reed, Buster substituted The Beatles for Elvis to make his point in a more modern way. And in doing so, you’ll notice, he made the larger point that he continued to keep up with trends, while many of his contemporaries did not.

[westegg]

Thanks for clarifying that story, which I thought an interesting counterpoint to our Norma Desmond ruminations.

On a sidenote, I saw a circa 1967 clip on YouTube featuring Ted Lewis, who performed an interminable sing-song about bygone showbiz days. It was almost self-mocking as he referred to himself as (and I'm probably paraphrasing) "who is this old guy singing about those old times?"' So he gets points for such self awareness, but I'm sure there were others who never saw beyond the era they were such a big deal, such as the fictional Norma.