Domestic and Export negs.

[Michael O'Regan]

I watched a short documentary comparing both versions of FAUST this morning and a question occurred to me.

Did Murnau have much input to the editing of the export version? I ask because there certainly seemed to be a lot more care taken over the domestic print.

Was it common for the director, in such cases, to delegate to an assistant director where final edit of the export version was concerned?

[Phototone]

I was always under the impression that the "export" negative, shot by a second camera positioned next to the main camera on a set, was cut exactly like the domestic negative, shot for shot.

[Jay Salsberg]

Export negs were edited in the country to which they were exported. Because of the high costs of exporting/importing completed feature films, producers would instead export cans full of hundreds of unedited takes, along with the director's editing instructions. It was the job of the editor in the importing country to assemble the film according to the director's guidelines. But some editors would take artistic license, and make shots longer/shorter or delete them altogether. So Murnau edited the domestic version of FAUST, while someone at MGM edited the US version.

[Rodney]

While Salsberg's information is exactly right for the general film industry, Faust had some differences from the standard practice. According to the documentary (included on the recent Kino restored 2-disc set), Murnau sent the best takes to America (since he was traveling there to shoot Sunrise and wanted to make a good impression). If I recall correctly, he himself edited them. Could be wrong, it's been a while since I watched that documentary. The second best takes stayed in Germany, then on down the road, with the French getting the worst takes, like the one where Faust bumps his head on a lantern, or where Gretchen steps on the inside of her skirt going up some stairs. They actually vary quite a bit in places, for instance, the Americans got a prohibition joke that the rest of the world didn't, and the flight across the world takes place at different speeds.

The restored print on the Kino disc comes from a Dutch source, as the German negatives were worn out. I've heard that the American cut is available in a 35mm print at MGM, and I'd like to see it some day.

[Rollo Treadway]

When the Murnau/Borzage box came out, some of us were discussing the differences between the US and Czech prints of Sunrise, comparing screengrabs of parallel shots. There was some speculation on whether the studio or Murnau himself had selected the takes that were either more "daring" or featured more "expressionistic" acting for the foreign negatives. In the examples below, the first shots are from the US print and those underneath from the Czech version.

[Michael O'Regan]

While Salsberg's information is exactly right for the general film industry, Faust had some differences from the standard practice. According to the documentary (included on the recent Kino restored 2-disc set), Murnau sent the best takes to America (since he was traveling there to shoot Sunrise and wanted to make a good impression). If I recall correctly, he himself edited them. Could be wrong, it's been a while since I watched that documentary.

Are you referring to the documentary featuring the interview with Tony Rayns? I watched that just yesterday and don't recall him saying that, though it's possible I was distracted for a few seconds.

[Bob Birchard]

Foreign negatives were usually assembled by the film laboratory (in the country of origin) to match the domestic negative as closely as possible. Since the films were usually hand-cranked, even with side-by-side cameras, there may be some variation in shot length; also, some shots may be added or removed (in "The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse" for example the scene with Terry and Valentino with the rose at the restaurant table is cut differently in the domestic and foreign versions, ditto the scene where Harold Lloyd's signature is not put on the petition in "The Kid Brother"). Many producers, especially Harold Lloyd, but also Chaplin and others, used alternate takes for their foreign negs--thus action might be slightly different from version to version. Occasionally, with an especially difficult action sequence, dupe sections of domestic neg footage were even used in foreign negs (as in "The Best Bad Man"). A big director like Cecil B. DeMille might ask to see a print off the foreign neg, but I'm sure most went out without much supervision or review.

[Michael O'Regan]

Thanks, folks. Very helpful replies.

[Robert Moulton]

Now I'm getting confused by the use of multiple cameras to film a shot. I thought that that was done so that a foreign neg could be made that used the same takes except shot from a vantage point just a little off from the primary camera. But most alternate versions I am seeing recently are featuring completely different takes. So was it a mixture then: some shots from the alternate camera and some shots completely alternate takes?

The recent release of The Saphead raises a question for me: I thought the Rohauer version was a longer version before final edits had been made on it to shorten it. But doesn't the new alternate version have the same length? Wouldn't that indicate the Rohauer version is the released length?

[Jack Theakston]

Now I'm getting confused by the use of multiple cameras to film a shot. I thought that that was done so that a foreign neg could be made that used the same takes except shot from a vantage point just a little off from the primary camera. But most alternate versions I am seeing recently are featuring completely different takes. So was it a mixture then: some shots from the alternate camera and some shots completely alternate takes?

Yes. Depending on what was "better" or what negative you were printing from (there were more than just two, of course), some negs got different takes, while others got different angles.

[Jay Salsberg]

Robert Moulton: "Now I'm getting confused by the use of multiple cameras to film a shot. I thought that that was done so that a foreign neg could be made that used the same takes except shot from a vantage point just a little off from the primary camera. But most alternate versions I am seeing recently are featuring completely different takes. So was it a mixture then: some shots from the alternate camera and some shots completely alternate takes?"

Assuming there were two cameras shooting a film, and the director made, say, 10 takes of every shot, you would end up with 20 takes of each scene, with no more than two alike. The director would select the best takes for the domestic version, and the other 19 (which came from both cameras) would be mixed-and-matched for export prints.

[Rodney]

Are you referring to the documentary featuring the interview with Tony Rayns? I watched that just yesterday and don't recall him saying that, though it's possible I was distracted for a few seconds.

I'm talking about the documentary on the Kino deluxe Faust (Restored Deluxe Edition) disc, which is the Faust episode of a series called "The Language of Shadows." Kino describes it as "a 53-minute documentary on the making of Murnau's film." I don't know if Tony Rayns is on it... I'll check when I get a chance, but it may be a while.

[Bob Birchard]

Now I'm getting confused by the use of multiple cameras to film a shot. I thought that that was done so that a foreign neg could be made that used the same takes except shot from a vantage point just a little off from the primary camera. But most alternate versions I am seeing recently are featuring completely different takes. So was it a mixture then: some shots from the alternate camera and some shots completely alternate takes?

The recent release of The Saphead raises a question for me: I thought the Rohauer version was a longer version before final edits had been made on it to shorten it. But doesn't the new alternate version have the same length? Wouldn't that indicate the Rohauer version is the released length?

Depending on the company, the star, or the film, there may have been multiple domestic negatives. Chaplin, for example, was required to supply four negatives for his films. Also, with printing from original negatives and the possibility of damaging the negative, "B" negative would be retained for making repairs at least until the contracted print runs were fulfilled, so often the foreign would be made from alternate takes rather than side-by-side takes. Also, sometimes the two cameras were used for coverage instead of merely for protection. I have a production still from "Foolish Wives" in which the two cameras are pointed at two different people in closeup--much the same way A and B cameras might be used today. Alternate takes would need to be shot in instances like this to make up a foreign negative.

[Michael O'Regan]

Are you referring to the documentary featuring the interview with Tony Rayns? I watched that just yesterday and don't recall him saying that, though it's possible I was distracted for a few seconds.

I'm talking about the documentary on the Kino deluxe Faust (Restored Deluxe Edition) disc, which is the Faust episode of a series called "The Language of Shadows." Kino describes it as "a 53-minute documentary on the making of Murnau's film." I don't know if Tony Rayns is on it... I'll check when I get a chance, but it may be a while.

No, that's OK. That's a totally different documentary and one which I'd love to see.
The doc I watched was just an interview with Rayns, included on the MoC set.

[David Pierce]

The subject of alternate versions of silent films has always interested me. I'll be giving a presentation on the topic - titled "The Mystery of the Second Camera" - at the AMIA Reel Thing conference in Los Angeles later this month.
http://www.amianet.org/events/thereelth ... ogram.html" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

David Pierce

Media History Digital Library
http://mediahistoryproject.org/" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

[Rodney]

The subject of alternate versions of silent films has always interested me. I'll be giving a presentation on the topic - titled "The Mystery of the Second Camera" - at the AMIA Reel Thing conference in Los Angeles later this month.
http://www.amianet.org/events/thereelth ... ogram.html" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

David Pierce

Media History Digital Library
http://mediahistoryproject.org/" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

If anyone is interested in the "domestic and export versions" of films, some DVD releases with multiple versions of films include:

Milestone's Suds, which has American and European release prints, and a short demo of the differences. (There are big differences in the intertitles, and all different takes.)

The Region B Blu-Ray of Sunrise, which includes a Czech print.

As discussed, the deluxe version of Faust from Kino, which includes the restored print based on the Danish release, but also the previous Kino version (whose source I do not know, though I'm sure it's mentioned in that documentary).

Any others come to mind?

[Salty Dog]

The subject of alternate versions of silent films has always interested me. I'll be giving a presentation on the topic - titled "The Mystery of the Second Camera" - at the AMIA Reel Thing conference in Los Angeles later this month.
http://www.amianet.org/events/thereelth ... ogram.html" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

David Pierce

Media History Digital Library
http://mediahistoryproject.org/" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

If anyone is interested in the "domestic and export versions" of films, some DVD releases with multiple versions of films include:

Milestone's Suds, which has American and European release prints, and a short demo of the differences. (There are big differences in the intertitles, and all different takes.)

The Region B Blu-Ray of Sunrise, which includes a Czech print.

As discussed, the deluxe version of Faust from Kino, which includes the restored print based on the Danish release, but also the previous Kino version (whose source I do not know, though I'm sure it's mentioned in that documentary).

Any others come to mind?

The recent Kino Steamboat Bill, Jr. release includes 2 different versions, from different takes.
Not sure which if any is European and/or American.

[Michael O'Regan]

Does the Spanish version of Dracula count? This is, of course, available on the Universal DVD release.

[Allen Perkins]

The David Shepard version of THE LOST WORLD prominently features large portions from a liney and splicey but slightly more complete Czech print of the film, which is composed of alternate takes/angles. I'd love to see a proper restoration utilizing the tinted and toned nitrate print discovered about 10 years ago...

[Gloria Rampage]

Salty Dog
The recent Kino Steamboat Bill, Jr. release includes 2 different versions, from different takes.Not sure which if any is European and/or American.

It's a Paul Killiam Archive print. Where he got it from isn't mentioned.

[Christopher Jacobs]

The subject of alternate versions of silent films has always interested me. I'll be giving a presentation on the topic - titled "The Mystery of the Second Camera" - at the AMIA Reel Thing conference in Los Angeles later this month.
http://www.amianet.org/events/thereelth ... ogram.html" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

David Pierce

Media History Digital Library
http://mediahistoryproject.org/" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

If anyone is interested in the "domestic and export versions" of films, some DVD releases with multiple versions of films include:

Milestone's Suds, which has American and European release prints, and a short demo of the differences. (There are big differences in the intertitles, and all different takes.)

The Region B Blu-Ray of Sunrise, which includes a Czech print.

As discussed, the deluxe version of Faust from Kino, which includes the restored print based on the Danish release, but also the previous Kino version (whose source I do not know, though I'm sure it's mentioned in that documentary).

Any others come to mind?

Besides these and STEAMBOAT BILL JR already mentioned, there are alternate versions of Keaton's THE SAPHEAD on the new Blu-ray, and an early cut (not an alternate release version) of OUR HOSPITALITY on that disc. There's also the infamous 1929/30 reshot/recut version of THE PHANTOM OF THE OPERA and its 1925 "original" version.

There are a few separate DVD releases from different cuts, including THE CAT AND THE CANARY, INTOLERANCE, and others I can't recall off-hand.

Oh, and the SUNRISE Blu-ray from Eureka is region-free! I seem to recall that Fox Home Video's Murnau/Borzage at Fox DVD set also contains both cuts of SUNRISE, but I'd have to check to make sure.

[Brooksie]

The restoration of For The Term Of His Natural Life (1926), done some years ago, was made using a combination of the Australian and US cuts of the film. The intertitles were left unchanged, so you can see some of the differences firsthand - for example, the US version names 'Macquarie Harbor' as 'MacQuarrie Harbor'. An odd move, given that it's a real-life location.