Issues in getting a DVD reissue of a VHS release

[sethb]

I have the film THOSE LIPS, THOSE EYES (1980) in its original VHS tape format. Some time ago, I transferred it to DVD using one of those VHS/DVD players. Even though a DVD has a technically higher resolution rate than videotape, the DVD transfer was of course no better than the original video, because it could only copy what was there. But I believe I'm still better off with the DVD copy, as against the day when the videotape breaks or gets eaten by my tape player.

Now I see that the Warner Archive (in its MGM section) is offering the film in a made-to-order (MOD) DVD format. Leaving aside for the moment the issue of the durability of a MOD disc as opposed to a "pressed" one, I'm wondering if the new DVD release would be of any higher quality (resolution) than my simple DIY copy. I guess that depends mostly upon the source material being used, and I know that for the most part, the Warner Archive does not remaster its films for DVD release.

So would the Warner/MGM source material (presumably a video master and not the original film elements) still be of higher quality than what I presently have, and could I actually see the difference onscreen -- or would they simply be doing the same thing as I did in digitizing the videotape? If it's the latter, I don't see the point of spending $20 to duplicate what I've already done in creating a preservation copy for my personal use.

By the way, if you haven't ever seen this movie, it's well worth a look. Great sets, good story, and Frank Langella is great, along with the entire supporting cast. SETH

[Salty Dog]

I'm not sure what Warner uses as sources in every case,
but I have yet to see a single Warner Archive disc (and I
have quite a few) that don't look substantially better than
a VHS tape.

[momsne]

If the movie ever shows up on TCM, you can try recording it off the airing and seeing if the image quality is better than your VHS tape. If the WAC DVD-R of a movie describes it as "remastered," the quality will be better than your VHS tape transfer. If not, the difference may not be that great, especially if you are viewing your home made DVD on an up converting DVD player that is connected by HDMI cable to an HD TV.

[Changsham]

I would agree wit Salty Dog here. I have well over 100+ WA DVR discs. All work well and none have failed yet. The image quality varies with source material but even the ones from the poorest source material look and sound far better than VHS of comparable condition.

[silentfilm]

Since a VHS tape has a resolution of about 333x480 pixels, a DVD with no dropouts, even a MOD DVD should look significantly better.

[Lamar]

This is scheduled for TCM this Friday (May 31)-11:15 pm CST.

[sethb]

Since a VHS tape has a resolution of about 333x480 pixels, a DVD with no dropouts, even a MOD DVD should look significantly better.

I agree that for the above technical reasons, a DVD should look better, but I believe it all depends upon the quality of the source material being transferred, as well as the care taken with the transfer. My homemade DVD is nice, but it will never look any better that the rather limited resolution of the VHS tape it was transferred from. While the picture was OK on a 36" TV screen (about the best that early 1990's technology could offer), it does look a bit grainy/fuzzy on a 50" LED screen.

You would think that whatever Warner/MGM is using as a master, even a video master, would be of higher resolution than the VHS tape I was working from. But I guess there's really no way to tell, except by buying the new DVD reissue and seeing for myself --- and even then, the differences may not be big enough to notice.

But what the heck, I've spent lots more money on some very lousy movies. At least I'll be getting a GOOD movie!! SETH

[earlytalkie]

Go for the Warner Archive version. A VHS tape by nature will never have the same resolution of whatever master is used to make the DVD. If this film were going to be broadcast via the same master used to make the VHS tape way back when, it would be one generation better than your DVD dub of the same tape, so it should have slightly better quality. I only own one Warner Archive disc, The Show of Shows from 1929. I had taped this off the air back in 1990 on VHS and when I saw the DVD-R, it had much sharper quality ( I could see the detail on Winnie Lightner's dress, for example) even though the master used was from an unrestored source according to the publicity on the box. As to longevity of DVD-Rs, I have quite a few "homemade" ones from various people on various media brands, some dating back 6 years. I play them all regularly and they are (so far) all playable on a variety of machines I have (even Show of Shows, which many people reported trouble with).

[sethb]

Well, I decided to splurge and buy the Warner/MGM DVD, and will duly report the results when it arrives.

Meanwhile, I suppose I'll also have to get the Blu-Ray version when it's released for the 35th anniversary of the film in 2015. SETH

[momsne]

Those Lips, Those Eyes - Friday, May 31 @ 12:15 AM (ET)
As Lamar wrote above, this movie is on TCM this week. If you can and have the time, you can record the movie from TCM's airing now (not in 1990) and compare the image quality to your WAC DVD. Although not noted on the TCM website, it is possible that TCM will include a closed captioning track on its airing. Sadly, WAC DVDs do not now come with subtitles or closed captioning. Aside from the annoying bug every 10 minutes on the TCM airing, my guess is that the difference in image quality will be marginally different for this color movie, with the DVD looking sharper, of course. My experience is that WAC DVDs of black and white movies look noticeably sharper than the airing of the same movie on TCM, enough to justify my buying a few dozen WAC DVDs of pre-code movies when on sale, remastered DVD or not. But I am a fan of Warner Bros. pre-code movies, which figured into my purchase decision. When TCM had on "Quentin Durward" (in color) about two weeks ago, I recorded the movie on the hard drive of my DVD recorder and burned a DVD-R from the recording. The image quality of the TCM airing looked almost as good as my WAC DVD of the movie. I made the recording so I could do a few time consuming computer steps and end up with a DVD-R of "Quentin Durward" with yellow on-off English subtitles. The subtitles were all in capitals, since TCM does not use lower case letters when making its closed captioning for most movies.

1 June 2013: Just checked out my recording from TCM of this movie. No closed captioning. Film or video source used for TCM airing looked pretty bad. Image had a smudged look, colors washed out. If you told me that TCM used an old VHS video tape of this movie for this airing, that would explain the bad image quality. When the actors were dancing on stage in red Mountie uniforms, the red color seemed to bleed around the dancers.

[sethb]

Well, I just watched the TCM broadcast of THOSE LIPS, THOSE EYES, and would say that the quality was somewhat better than my original videotape. The image was a bit sharper than the VHS version, which had a sort of filmy/fuzzy or grainy look to it. The Warner/MGM DVD version is due to arrive in a few days, and it will be interesting to compare it to the other versions.

Meanwhile, I did notice one VERY interesting detail in the TCM version. About 19 minutes into the film, in the scene where Frank Langella confronts the director over the props issue, he says "Oy, what a putz!!" Or at least, that's what he said in the original VHS version. The TCM broadcast version apparently snipped off a tiny bit of dialogue, so that now all he says is "Oy, what a put . . !" ---- which makes no sense whatever, but was obviously a crucial edit for some bluenose idiot at TCM.

And you thought the Hays Office was dead and buried. Wrong --- looks like someone is still protecting the tender ears of American television viewers from Yiddish slang!! SETH

[Marr&Colton]

As one fussy for video quality--I've noticed the following on TCM:

TCM still runs "old transfers" on some titles. These are transfers from the early 1990s before higher transfer technology of today was commonly used. On rare occasion, pretty bad transfers show up.

TCM is also broadcasting more and more newer masterings of certain titles which look very nice--and if recorded at HQ speed off a clean cable connection can be quite enjoyable even on large projected screens. Best way to do this is have a DVD recorder with hard drive so entire movie can be saved in HQ quality then divided for two discs (if over 60 minutes) to preserve high bit-rate and clean quality. (for use in your home, of course)

I remember the old days of VHS as well as AMC cable channel with those soft image transfers of the 1980s....glad those days are past!

[sethb]

Well, the Warner/MGM DVD arrived today. Unfortunately, my high hopes of a quality transfer were not realized.

In my humble opinion, my own DIY transfer to DVD from the original 1980 VHS videotape looked BETTER than whatever Warners did. The Warner DVD looked even softer and grainer than my original videotape!! Even the recent TCM broadcast looked better than this DVD version.

My first tip-off was a message that preceded the film, stating that "This film has been manufactured from the best sources available." Obviously they didn't try very hard to obtain the "best." What a shame, considering that the film was shot in Panavision, providing an even larger film frame and image than usual. If this is Warner/MGM's idea of "film preservation," then I don't have high hopes for the future.

So on one hand, I think this was a big missed opportunity. But on the other hand, at least now the title is available, which it hasn't been for about 25 years, as far as I know. SETH

[earlytalkie]

Go for the Warner Archive version. A VHS tape by nature will never have the same resolution of whatever master is used to make the DVD. If this film were going to be broadcast via the same master used to make the VHS tape way back when, it would be one generation better than your DVD dub of the same tape, so it should have slightly better quality. I only own one Warner Archive disc, The Show of Shows from 1929. I had taped this off the air back in 1990 on VHS and when I saw the DVD-R, it had much sharper quality ( I could see the detail on Winnie Lightner's dress, for example) even though the master used was from an unrestored source according to the publicity on the box. As to longevity of DVD-Rs, I have quite a few "homemade" ones from various people on various media brands, some dating back 6 years. I play them all regularly and they are (so far) all playable on a variety of machines I have (even Show of Shows, which many people reported trouble with).

Sorry for my bad advice. I would have assumed that a Warners-owned video master would be of better quality than that. Something I would expect on an Alpha DVD (and priced accordingly), not from a big studio.

[sethb]

Your advice was well-intentioned and made sense. The bad move was made by Warner/MGM, not you! Fortunately, the total cost was only $19 with shipping, and I can always use the DVD disc as a drink coaster, so not all is lost. But I've seen better dupes from the now-defunct Thunderbird Films, for goodness sakes!

Oh well, like I said before, I'm willing to wait for the 35th anniversary Blu-ray edition, sourced from the original Panavision negative, with additional digital correction of all artifacts, dust motes and so forth. That version will probably be issued about the same time as the uncut version of "Greed" (1922) or the lost L&H short "Hats Off."

[Phototone]

Well, individual releases aside, a DVD is capable of full NTSC resolution, and possibly more in "enhanced for widescreen" issues. A VHS tape WILL NEVER have more than about 1/2 NTSC resolution. Most films (prior to HD mastering) were mastered to video in at least broadcast quality resolution, which is a bit less than full DVD quality, but still much higher than standard VHS resolution.

[momsne]

If TCM's programmers read postings at this site, maybe the next airing of this movie on TCM will use better print material. I saw one of my favorite movies, 1949's "The Black Book," on TCM on two different airings where TCM using a public domain source for the broadcast. The video quality stunk. Then the crack technicians at Sony/Columbia used good print material to produce a DVD that looked very fine. It looks like that that DVD is what TCM then used to make a new digital recording of "The Black Book," a recording used now whenever TCM shows this movie on its schedule.

"Those Lips, Those Eyes" was a United Artists release of a Herb Jaffe production. That independent production company is long gone. MGM probably has the distribution rights to this movie. MGM is a zombie corporation, pretty much dead in the water except for its James Bond movies. So whoever is running MGM would have to greenlight a restoration of this movie, something not high on MGM's To Do list. But you never know who is a Frank Langella fan.

[sethb]

Thanks for all the additional info. I also would have thought that a good broadcast-quality source would have been used, but either that wasn't the case or somebody just did a poor job of making the transfer.

It's interesting to note that although UA is mostly defunct, somebody apparently spent some money on a fancy new UA logo that was attached to both the TCM broadcast version and the new DVD. Too bad a few more bucks couldn't have been diverted from that and spent to make a high-quality product. But the new logo did look nice --- in fact, even better than the movie itself. SETH