inconsistencies & discrepancies with new LoC Silent database

[sepiatone]

has anybody taken the time to search through and find some mistakes or info that obviously needs updating or is confusing?

After reading Harold Aherne cross referencing in another thread "The NIght Rose" (1921), a lost film and getting a hit that lists surviving I did a little exploring on the site. A great resource no matter, but certainly will need updates or corrections. Here's some of my results:

*ALIEN BLOOD(1917) - not listed in any archive. But it is listed in the LoC collection in the Catalog of Holdings(1978)

*SINS OF THE FATHERS(1928) - not listed in any holding. Silentera.com says a print exists

*BROTHERLY LOVE(1928) - not listed in any holding. Silentera has it listed at UCLA , but a Nitrateville poster after contact with UCLA says only sound track survives.

*EAST IS WEST(1922) - not listed in any holding. But is held by EYE Institute Nederlands.

*HER MARKET VALUE(1925) - not listed in any holding. Another source has it at UCLA Film & Tv.

*THE PORT OF MISSING GIRLS(1928) - not listed in any holding. But is listed in LoC collection in Catalog of Holdings(1978). This is not to be confused with the 1938 film of the same name which I think is now Public Domain.

*THE BELOVED ROGUE(1927). not listed as being in any holding. The film is on DVD and I ?think has made it to Blu-Ray now, I'll have to check.

[boblipton]

Please let us know how they react when you offer them these corrections.

Bob

[sepiatone]

why? I've written to ask-a-librarian before. They're very congenial and obliging.

[Brooksie]

There seems to be an anomaly with films whose title begins with 'The'. For example, type in 'The Patsy' (with 'Contained In: Main Title') selected, and you will get the 1917 and 1921 films of that name, but not the 1928 version. You can only get that by searching 'Patsy, The'. The same is true of The Barker.

The strange thing is that it is inconsistent - typing in 'The Ten Commandments' gets you the same results as 'Ten Commandments, The'.

[boblipton]

why? I've written to ask-a-librarian before. They're very congenial and obliging.

Because not everyone is when you try to help. I'm glad to hear that they are.

Bob

[sepiatone]

There seems to be an anomaly with films whose title begins with 'The'. For example, type in 'The Patsy' (with 'Contained In: Main Title') selected, and you will get the 1917 and 1921 films of that name, but not the 1928 version. You can only get that by searching 'Patsy, The'. The same is true of The Barker.

The strange thing is that it is inconsistent - typing in 'The Ten Commandments' gets you the same results as 'Ten Commandments, The'.

Brooksie, "The Patsy"
It's on there, it's several pages in (page 3). You have to hit the 'next' button and keep flipping pages till you come to it.

[craig2010]

You can email any corrections to me and Donna Ross. We will check it out, correct as needed, and let you know the result. We will be updating this database periodically. The database, obviously, is a work in progress and we want to get it right.
Please email suggested corrections (with as much info as you can) and any questions to:
Steve Leggett <[email protected]> and Donna Ross <[email protected]>

We will respond though it may take a few days.

thanks, Steve Leggett

[Gagman 66]

:

shock: Huh? No Archival holdings on THE RUNAWAY (1926)? Not true! Pristine looking footage of Clara Bow and William Powell from this film appears in the Clara Bow documentary that debuted in England last year, It does not seem to be from a Trailer. And there is no reference to a surviving trailer listed either. There was also new footage found to ROUGH HOUSE ROSIE that appeared in that documentary. Yet there is zero mention on the site about that either. RED HAIR too. By and large I 'm not finding much more updated information on the LOC Database then on Silent Era.com.

On the plus side, REVENGE (1928) is complete! Any chance we could get a DVD or Blu-ray of this film along with RAMONA (1928)? A Dolores Del Rio Double feature? Remember Rob mentioned something about the RAMONA Blu-ray being out by the end of the year. Obviously, they didn't make it, but who is this coming from anyway? Can we get an update? of any kind?

As I already mentioned Colleen Moore's NAUGHTY BUT NICE is complete as well! But the elements are still in Holland. And it looks like between several archives all 11 reels of LILAC TIME have been accounted for. So that's great news. Previously I was told that only 8 reels survived. Was also gratified to see that Lubitsch FORBIDDEN PARADISE is now intact. THE JOY GIRL also exists complete Olive Borden fans!

[Harold Aherne]

There are several titles where the ASFFSD doesn't align with what the BFI's own website shows them as possessing. Examples:

Telling the World (1928)--BFI shown as having complete material in unspecified format. BFI site says they have no film or video.

The Stolen Kiss (1920)--as above.

Silks and Satins (1916)--BFI says they have no material, yet DeWitt Bodeen viewed a print of this in the 1970s (see here).

The Little Minister (1921)--yet again, BFI shows no film material, but the author of the new LOC report notes that the BFI preserved a Dutch print in 1959!

If the BFI's database is inaccurate about the latter two, I hope they are wrong about the former two--it would be nice to have a previously lost William Haines and anything with Constance Binney.

-HA

[greta de groat]

The database also doesn't mention The Feast of Life (1916) that is held by the Czech Film Archive. It screened in Bologna a couple of years ago though I have yet too hear a report from anyone who saw it.

Greta

[David Pierce]

The database also doesn't mention The Feast of Life (1916) that is held by the Czech Film Archive. It screened in Bologna a couple of years ago though I have yet too hear a report from anyone who saw it.

Greta

In the process of conducting the research into surviving titles that provides the statistics in the report, I spent many, many hours trying to confirm the holdings of overseas archives. Easiest to confirm was where a print had been screened, such as Greta mentions above. There were a number of situations where a title showed up in FIAF Treasures and the archive that submitted the entry couldn't confirm what, if anything, they held on the title. In general, I focused on confirming the holdings of American archives, and spot checked overseas archives when possible on key titles.

With domestic archives, when I had doubts, I confirmed whether titles were complete. Many of the submissions from American archives to FIAF Treasures turned out to be incomplete, or even fragments. Zoran Sinobad of the Library of Congress checked hundreds of titles in their database, and even caused some elements to be examined when the records were unclear.

It was always clear that the database would be a work in progress, though this online version is rougher than I expected. As sepiatone noted, it shows no holdings on The Beloved Rogue (1927), a title that I own in 35mm! Regardless, one of the goals of the report was to uncover additional titles, and be able to update the database, and I appreciate the feedback.

David Pierce

[silentfilm]

Is Serge Bromberg's Lobster Films included? He indicated that he had a 35mm print of The Eternal Three (1923) a few years ago in an email to me, but I don't think that he had preserved or screened it.

[KenGriffin]

There are several titles where the ASFFSD doesn't align with what the BFI's own website shows them as possessing.

The BFI's website is quite unreliable. There are numerous instances I am aware of where the database doesn't return results for material that definitely exists in their collections.

[drednm]

The database is a mammoth and much needed resource. My only beef ... maybe a beefette ... is that it's almost worthless to search by actor name (rather than by title) since only one searchable name is associated with each title. How the name was picked would be interesting to know.

For example, when I searched for Marie Dressler, only 3 titles came up even though she was obviously in more than 3 silent films. A search on specific title like The Patsy or The Divine Lady yielded results for those films with Marion Davies and Corinne Griffith listed as star. But only 3 titles for Dressler. A title search for Tillie's Tomato Surprise yielded results but the star is listed as Colin Campbell, not Dressler.

So the information is usually there, but you need to tweak your search.

[R Michael Pyle]

There are several titles where the ASFFSD doesn't align with what the BFI's own website shows them as possessing.

The BFI's website is quite unreliable. There are numerous instances I am aware of where the database doesn't return results for material that definitely exists in their collections.

I've had the same problem, but with effort, sometimes a lot of effort, I've always found what I was looking for. For example, I had a deuce of a time even finding "Underground" (1928) in the list to buy. But I found it eventually and certainly enjoyed watching it when I received it!

[sepiatone]

There are several titles where the ASFFSD doesn't align with what the BFI's own website shows them as possessing. Examples:



The Little Minister (1921)--yet again, BFI shows no film material, but the author of the new LOC report notes that the BFI preserved a Dutch print in 1959!

If the BFI's database is inaccurate about the latter two, I hope they are wrong about the former two--it would be nice to have a previously lost William Haines and anything with Constance Binney.

-HA

which "The Little Minister" ? There were two in 1921, Betty Compson-Paramount version or Alice Calhoun-Vitagraph version.

Constance Binney:
interesting you bring up CB Harold. Her 1921 feature THE CASE OF BECKY is listed in the printed 1978 catalog as being in the LoC in nitrate(stored probably at Dayton facility). The new database dosen't show a holding for it at all now. Could the LoC have lost the nitrate copy in the last 35 years? Does the LoC transfer nitrate or acetate material to other preservation houses? or once a print is in the Library, a copy always stays?

[syd]

Johnny Get Your Hair Cut (1927) is listed as complete in 7 reels
and a domestic (U.S.) print in 35mm. Has this ever been shown
on TCM? Last time I looked it up on the imdb, the only review was
from the notorious F. Gwynplaine MacIntyre (who now has a wikipedia
page). I never knew FGM had it so hard, growing up in an Australian
orphanage as well as a child labor camp and all.

http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F._Gwy ... _MacIntyre" target="_blank

[Harold Aherne]

which "The Little Minister" ? There were two in 1921, Betty Compson-Paramount version or Alice Calhoun-Vitagraph version.

The Compson--I don't think the competing Vitagraph version is known to exist.

-HA

[craig2010]

Case of Becky.
Database lists info for 1921 and 1915 versions. LC has elements on 1915 version only and those are mentioned in database. That mention of LC having a copy of the 1921 version is a typo in the 1978 AFI Catalog of LC holdings, which was duly noted in hand on the copy of the book I inherited.

As mentioned, folks should send in possible errors to Donna Ross [email protected] and Steve Leggett [email protected] . These will be looked into and you will be sent a reply (may take a week or two) with the result.

We will be updating the database at least a couple of times per month. Already have received via email several corrections/additions (thanks to those folks!) and we will be adding those in near future, and filling in a few gaps/omissions found in various sources. I can guarantee more will be coming as stuff is lurking out there waiting to be found in places like the Czech Republic. Case in point: the recent NFPF repatriation from New Zealand, which found a lot of new stuff even though there had been earlier repatriations from there back in the 1980s.Again, please email any corrections or additions as we work to make the database even better. Thanks

[rogerskarsten]

There are several titles where the ASFFSD doesn't align with what the BFI's own website shows them as possessing. Examples:

Telling the World (1928)--BFI shown as having complete material in unspecified format. BFI site says they have no film or video.

[…]

If the BFI's database is inaccurate about the latter two, I hope they are wrong about the former two--it would be nice to have a previously lost William Haines and anything with Constance Binney.

-HA

I wrote to the BFI a couple of years ago to ask about TELLING THE WORLD after coming across a listing for it in the FIAF database. Sonia Genaitay was kind enough to respond with the information that they do indeed have some material (amounting to 3668 feet) on this title, derived from a 1929 nitrate black and white positive print. They also hold preservation duplicating elements as well as a safety copy. I was told that the safety copy can be viewed in the BFI's London offices by appointment. I haven't made it there yet, but maybe someday!

~Roger

[sepiatone]

Johnny Get Your Hair Cut (1927) is listed as complete in 7 reels
and a domestic (U.S.) print in 35mm. Has this ever been shown
on TCM? Last time I looked it up on the imdb, the only review was
from the notorious F. Gwynplaine MacIntyre (who now has a wikipedia
page). I never knew FGM had it so hard, growing up in an Australian
orphanage as well as a child labor camp and all.

http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F._Gwy ... _MacIntyre" target="_blank" target="_blank

still that can't account for page after page of fraudulent reviews at IMDb on films he said he saw but are lost. According to him someone took him down into a secret basement in Spain and showed him a crappy copy of Chaney's THE BIG CITY(1928). And he really outted himself when he wrote a review of Chaney's lost TREASURE ISLAND(1920). He was chastised forever after. I think he was watching many silent screenings with the ghost of Mordaunt Hall in the Twilight Zone. Not to make light of his background, if the article is true, but he makes archive work and trackdown of older films difficult and wastes peoples time trying to follow his seemingly false leads.

The new database is an improvement I think on venues like the FIAF. Not to put down anyone, because everybody's input is a step in the right direction, but the new site can be updated more frequently with input of correct info and excise of incorrect information. Some online websites are good enough but haven't been updated in years, so they would reflect the most recent cache of films for instance repatriated from New Zealand etc. Incidentally what shall become of the FIAF now that this site does them one better being a little more interactive to the masses? will it still be needed and/or useful?

[Harold Aherne]

Incidentally what shall become of the FIAF now that this site does them one better being a little more interactive to the masses? will it still be needed and/or useful?

Sure, because it covers material (like short subjects and non-American films) that are beyond the current scope of the LOC database.

Roger, it's great to have confirmation on Telling the World. The BFI's footage amounts to maybe 40 minutes of what was originally an 80-minute movie (at 24 fps), but it would still be nice to see.

-HA

[Gagman 66]

I don't know if anyone noticed, but OVER THE HILL TO THE POOR HOUSE and THE HUMMINGBIRD are not listed as lost films in the data base. Both are listed as surviving and complete! News to me! FORBIDDEN PARADISE survives complete. In 2008 David Shepard said that it didn't? Has the rest been found recently? And does MANHANDLED exist in full-length form and 35 mm or not? Doesn't appear like it?

I know that the BFI has 35 millimeter elements on ORCHIDS AND ERMINE Because Kevin Brownlow specifically mentions this in one of his articles about Nitrate film. The LOC Data-Base only mentioned 16 millimeter for the title.Incidentally, no 35 millimeter source is listed for WHAT PRICE GLORY? either? Wasn't David Shepard prin that he provided to TCM, mastered from 35 millimeter?

[drednm]

Jeff, I think the complete Hummingbird has been listed at LOC for quite a while. I considered trying to buy a copy at one point......

[David Pierce]

I don't know if anyone noticed, but OVER THE HILL TO THE POOR HOUSE and THE HUMMINGBIRD are not listed as lost films in the data base. Both are listed as surviving and complete! News to me! FORBIDDEN PARADISE survives complete. In 2008 David Shepard said that it didn't? Has the rest been found recently? And does MANHANDLED exist in full-length form and 35 mm or not? Doesn't appear like it?

I know that the BFI has 35 millimeter elements on ORCHIDS AND ERMINE Because Kevin Brownlow specifically mentions this in one of his articles about Nitrate film. The LOC Data-Base only mentioned 16 millimeter for the title.Incidentally, no 35 millimeter source is listed for WHAT PRICE GLORY? either? Wasn't David Shepard prin that he provided to TCM, mastered from 35 millimeter?

The information in the database isn't as easy to read as it might be. 35mm is listed for both ORCHIDS AND ERMINE and WHAT PRICE GLORY? The latter is listed as 35mm domestic release version, source Twentieth Century Fox.

For FIAF Treasures, MoMA and the BFI tended not to include information on formats, and my contacts had to check dozens of titles for me to fill in the gaps.

David Pierce

[sepiatone]

Jeff, I think the complete Hummingbird has been listed at LOC for quite a while. I considered trying to buy a copy at one point......

it's been there at least since the 70s. OVER THE HILL TO THE POORHOUSE is listed in 1978 as existing in a nitrate print, but the LoC Ask a Librarian said the LoC doesn't have a copy, only a facility in France (Bois d'Arcy). Like the 1921 THE CASE OF BECKY was there ever a nitrate copy of OVER THE HILL at the LoC or another typo in the Catalog of Holdings?

[Christopher Jacobs]

Jeff, I think the complete Hummingbird has been listed at LOC for quite a while. I considered trying to buy a copy at one point......

it's been there at least since the 70s. OVER THE HILL TO THE POORHOUSE is listed in 1978 as existing in a nitrate print, but the LoC Ask a Librarian said the LoC doesn't have a copy, only a facility in France (Bois d'Arcy). Like the 1921 THE CASE OF BECKY was there ever a nitrate copy of OVER THE HILL at the LoC or another typo in the Catalog of Holdings?

OVER THE HILL TO THE POORHOUSE was my grandmother's favorite film (she was about 20 when it came out). I liked the 1931 talkie remake quite a bit, but I'd love to see the original someday.

[craig2010]

To answer a question which may come up today,..
Yes, A Virtuous Vamp 1919 does exist. It will be added to database