The Astaire/Rogers Musicals

[Phototone]

I recently acquired the Fred Astaire-Ginger Rogers DVD boxed set of all 10 of their musicals together from Warner Home Video. Image quality is very good for DVD (as compared to Blu-Ray), grain is noticeable on my big projection screen. There is some wear to be seen in the prints, although the ones I watched so far all appear to be from 35mm source material.

Many of you may know that the stage musical "Oklahoma!" was cited as being a breakthrough in that the songs were an integral part of the story and furthered the story, instead of the show just coming to a stop for a musical number ever so often. Well, Oklahoma! was written after most of these musicals, and yet to my mind most of the songs and dances in the Astaire/Rogers musicals seem to flow with, and contribute to the story line just as the songs in Oklahoma! did. The exception being Freds single big production number of him dancing alone in the films.

Have all of you noticed how the tunes in the Astaire/Rogers musicals are integrated into the story line?

[Harold Aherne]

Quite a few stage musicals back to the 1910s were integrating songs into the plot with verses that helped to advance the plot. Oh, Boy! (1917) featured "Till the Clouds Roll By", whose verse starts with "I'm so sad to think that I have had to drive you from your home so coolly" sung by Jackie Simpson, then George Budd replies "I'd be gaining nothing by remaining, what would Mrs. Grundy say?" The context of the libretto is required to fully understand what's going on. Likewise, in Sally (1920), the verses of "Look for the Silver Lining" refer to Sally's drudgery at the Alley Inn: "Please don't be offended if I preach to you a while / Tears are out of place in eyes that were meant to smile..." In the second verse, Sally replies with "As I wash my dishes I'll be following your plan / Till I see the brightness in every pot and pan..."

In other words, the Astaire/Rogers musicals do integrate the songs with the plot, but they were following a trend that had been active for some time. What are we to make of the claims for "Oklahoma", then?

1942 had not been a particularly strong year for the book musical; the only ones that to debut that year to reasonably long runs were By Jupiter and a revision of Die Fledermaus, Rosalinda. 1943 brought Something for the Boys and the last engagement of Lady in the Dark, but otherwise revues seemed to be the order of the day. In this environment, Oklahoma perhaps seemed more special than it actually was; its dramatic seriousness (to the degree that Curley and Laurie were capable of seriousness) and, as a sceptical Mike Todd put it, the show's "no legs, no jokes" evidently hit a nerve with critics and theatre-goers. Every song, not just selected ones, seemed to advance the characters and there was a fancy ballet to top it off.

Speaking for myself, I couldn't care less about the characters in Oklahoma or the tempest-in-a-teapot story, I think R&H's attempts at folksiness ring false in all their musicals, and I dislike the gooey turn that Hammerstein's lyrics took at this point. Furthermore, evaluating past musicals against those of the present is a much more imperfect science than doing the same for movies; stage performances of the past--especially musicals from before the 1940s--live on only in still photographs and the scattered recordings made by original cast members. Therefore it became easier for theatre critics of the time (including Brooks Atkinson) to suddenly think of most pre-OK musicals as silly trifles.

But anyway, you probably didn't intend for the thread to be a referendum on the merits of OK. The writers of the Astaire & Rogers films did perform their craft well, even if Ginger could stand to be a little nicer and less haughty to Fred some of the time.

-HA

[Phototone]

Well, ha ha, I thing Ginger being haughty was appropriate, as this gave tension and a reason to woo. Some great songs and dances came out of this "hard to get" motif in the plots. Basically the Astaire/Rogers musicals were very very similar to each other if you were to write out the plot in blocks. Boy meets girl, Girl rejects boy, Boy woos girl, Girl gives in, Boy gets girl.
All this set to music of the worlds best pop song writers. Berlin, Gershwin, Hart, etc.

[boblipton]

This was the structure set up in their previous starring musical, The Gay Divorcee* -- which had its own issues, including an old book and the issues of dealing with a newly enforced Production Code. By the time they started pre-production on Top Hat they knew what they would be doing and with whom.

Bob







* My, how the meaning of that title has changed in eighty years!

[drednm]

As much as I love the Rogers & Astaire musicals, I never thought Astaire was believable for a moment as the apple of Ginger's eye. He was 12 years older and looked even older than that. The toupe didn't help. A superb dancing talent and a decent actor, his singing is (to me) as annoying as Gene Kelly's. Neither one could sing. But once Astaire hits the dance floor, he's in a class by himself.

[entredeuxguerres]

Quite a few stage musicals back to the 1910s were integrating songs into the plot with verses that helped to advance the plot.
-HA

And they were preceded conceptually by Wagner's idea of "music-drama."

Years ago, thinking I, as a descendent of a long line of Okies, was under some cultural obligation to watch it (despite my strong aversion to '50s musicals), I forced myself to do so; it only made me want to renounce my ancestors. Compared to Show Boat...well, there is no comparison.

[entredeuxguerres]

...his singing is (to me) as annoying as Gene Kelly's.

Not that bad! Actually, I like his voice. And since everything in these pictures, the plot, the contrived situations, is unreal, the disparity in Fred & Ginger's ages & (especially) looks, doesn't trouble me. However, I'll tell you what does: the excessively silly (to avoid saying "stupid") comedy grates on my nerves; not the 1st or 2nd times I saw them, perhaps not even the 3rd or 4th times, but now, I've just about got to leave the room until the next song or dance comes up--which is exactly what I was doing during TCM's Fred & Ginger marathon on Xmas day.

[drednm]

LOL... you must be shy a comedy gene or something. And to think Allen Jenkins was the first choice for Astaire's role in Flying Down to Rio and Hugh Herbert was first choice for Astaire's role in Dancing Lady. Just think how cinematic history wold have been rewritten!!

Off to watch Hello, Dolly!

[Donald Binks]

Most musicals were stupid, but, in a way they were supposed to be; a way of escapism. I have quite liked them for that, taking them for what they are. Who cares that someone suddenly breaks into song for no reason whatsoever - don't we all secretly wish that the humdrum of our daily lives could be so refreshingly broken up in such a way? The Rogers/Astaire combination aided and assisted by a plethora of supporting characters, amongst whom Edward Everett Horton comes to the fore in my memory, served as saccharine sweetness in a world which at the time was very drab and dreary. Their pictures were the personification of elegance, IMHO. Wouldn't it be nice if we could go back to a world so given to grace - of men in full evening dress, ladies in diaphanous gowns, orchestras playing nice music and exquisite settings?

[greta de groat]

I watched the Astaire/Rogers musicals incessently as a teenager and still will drop everything and watch when the dance numbers come on. Oddly, i don't really care that much for Ginger otherwise, i was surprised at her longevity as a star. Though not that pretty to my eyes, she does have a great figure, too bad she doesn't have better posture. and her singing voice is serviceable but nothing special. I used to think that Fred couldn't sing, and it took me years to realized that while he has no voice he is a terrific stylist. I still enjoy The Gay Divorcee on repeated viewings, but i find that now the comedy and plots of the others seem too lame to be tolerable for the nth time. But the dancing is divine.

greta

[entredeuxguerres]

I used to think that Fred couldn't sing, and it took me years to realized that while he has no voice he is a terrific stylist.
greta

That's it exactly--not the sound of his voice, but his delivery of the lyrics...which is inseparable from the charm of his personality.

[Donald Binks]

I used to think that Fred couldn't sing, and it took me years to realized that while he has no voice he is a terrific stylist.
greta

That's it exactly--not the sound of his voice, but his delivery of the lyrics...which is inseparable from the charm of his personality.

Wasn't "Night and Day" written for Fred Astaire with a constant repetition of B flat as it was the only note he could achieve reasonably well?

[drednm]

It's awfully hard to believe Astaire sang on Broadway with that thin little voice.......

[FrankFay]

It's awfully hard to believe Astaire sang on Broadway with that thin little voice.......

I think that in the days before universal amplification and hidden microphones audiences knew how to LISTEN. Proper acoustics in a theater help too.

[boblipton]

People are often shocked at how small a Broadway theater is. They're used to the miked monstrosities like the Kennedy Center.

Bob

[Harold Aherne]

Neither Fred nor Adele had especially powerful voices, but they were able to use stage projection effectively. Their first session (for HMV, 11 October 1923) was recorded acoustically and Fred does quite well, although Adele's enunciation isn't as clear when singing (she's fine when speaking on the second title).
"The Whichness of the Whatness"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0vOwwf1BbE
"Oh Gee! Oh Gosh! (Oh Golly I Love You)"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOqB9WtFPEs

Their charm and élan is especially apparent on "Oh Gee!" and it becomes clear why they became big stars.

-HA

[drednm]

Amazing.... thanks for posting, Harold.

[entredeuxguerres]

Wonderful--whatever Fred's shortcomings as a singer, Adele's voice was ample compensation. Why'd she have to go off and get married?

Several of their recordings (which I never knew existed) have been posted on YT. Here's a marvelous song with a somewhat less than marvelous piano accompaniment:

http://youtu.be/6BTM07B0U64" target="_blank" target="_blank

Here's an excellent BBC piece about Adele & her life after Fred:

http://youtu.be/0W5wbKffWHo" target="_blank

[FrankFay]

Wonderful--whatever Fred's shortcomings as a singer, Adele's voice was ample compensation.

My thought was quite opposite- whereas Fred is a very limited singer I don't think Adele can sing at all, though that doesn't diminish her charm.

Here is Jean Harlow giving a great demonstration of how to overcome being Singing impaired. (Catch young Rita Hayworth at the 1:10 mark)[youtube]http://youtu.be/RS0MGcMZkrA?t=1m[/youtube]

[JFK]

The Magic Key 1-12-1936 Adele Astaire with Ben Grauer ; Stoopnagle & Budd ; Percy Grainger ; Pickens Sisters
Can't recall if I - or someone else- previously posted this link... Adele's segment runs from around the 9:12 point to 14:15 ...

[rudyfan]

Clearly, Jerome Kern, Irving Berlin and Cole Porter felt Astaire could sing and put across a lyric. I've never had a problem with his ability to put across a song. He was a great stylist, played a mean piano and could sell a lyric filled with subtle meaning. His ability to phrase was flawless.

His later collaborations on Verve with Oscar Peterson remain a must in my CD library. ymmv.

[Phototone]

Clearly, Jerome Kern, Irving Berlin and Cole Porter felt Astaire could sing and put across a lyric. I've never had a problem with his ability to put across a song. He was a great stylist, played a mean piano and could sell a lyric filled with subtle meaning. His ability to phrase was flawless.

His later collaborations on Verve with Oscar Peterson remain a must in my CD library. ymmv.

Hear Hear!!!! Fred was one of the great song stylists of the Great American Songbook. He certainly CAN sing on-key. His was a light voice, when the popular radio stars of the day were more of the crooner variety, such as Bing Crosby.

[JLNeibaur]

When I first saw the Astaire-Rogers RKO musicals for the first time (back in the early 70s) I do not recall ever reacting negatively to Fred's singing. I thought he always did just fine.

But then I also never had a problem with the comedy in these films either.

JN

[Donald Binks]

When I first saw the Astaire-Rogers RKO musicals for the first time (back in the early 70s) I do not recall ever reacting negatively to Fred's singing. I thought he always did just fine.

But then I also never had a problem with the comedy in these films either.

JN

I don't see what all the fuss is about? When you compare Fred Astaire for what passes as "interpreters of song" these days - he was way out in front! Most of the "artistes" of today wouldn't even get a job sweeping the studio floor back in the '30's!

[Brooksie]

Anyone who has ever tried to sing Night and Day will have a new admiration for Astaire's skill. All of those semitone steps and large leaps make for a very tricky song - or to put it another way, a song which is easy to do badly. Astaire doesn't hit a single bad note, and that in itself is creditable.

[Phillyrich]

When the great music critic Henry Pleasants wrote his seminal book: "The Great American Popular Singers," (1974), he left out Fred Astaire. In the paperback reprint, he apologized for his oversight.

Both Crosby and Sinatra loved Fred. And how many "covers" Frank did of songs Astaire first made famous--even "One for My Baby!" When I think of that hat poked back at a rakish angle, it must be either Astaire or Sinatra. Great style never goes out of style.

There is a new 2 CD set on "Fred Astaire at RKO". His best records from the 1930's. Newly remastered. Notes by Michael Feinstein. Some of the most charming recordings made by anyone in that era.

[Roseha]

I can only second everything said in favor of Fred's singing, I think he was a wonderful vocalist. I also think his personal charm and elegance was such that I never had issues with believing he and Ginger would fall in love, though they did certainly do enough feuding beforehand - maybe the audiences liked them being a little more down to earth in between the glamorous dances.

I think the film that best expresses the songs arising from their characters is Swing Time, with the songs by Jerome Kern and Dorothy Fields. Everything from A Fine Romance to Just the Way You Look Tonight (and I love the combined medley of those two songs at the end) to the great Never Gonna Dance. Wonderful.