Early WB Technicolor Vitaphone Nitrate Found!

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vitaphone
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Early WB Technicolor Vitaphone Nitrate Found!

Unread post by vitaphone » Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:03 pm

Vitaphone Project emissary in England Malcolm Billingsley has discovered a previously unknown cache of over a dozen 45- 75 second 35mm Technicolor nitrate spools with previously lost color scenes from ON WITH THE SHOW, SHOW OF SHOWS, SALLY and GOLD DIGGERS OF BROADWAY. All are mute of course, being Vitaphone, but both disks and B&W footage survives for the first three so these color fragments may be dropped into that existing footageThere may be more, but I wanted to post these(all but last from ON WITH THE SHOW) rather than leave you all hanging. Too early to answer any questions regarding specific content except to say that the one GOLD DIGGERS spool found so far duplicates already re-discovered material. The rest are all new and previously unknown. It is possible that individual spools lead into another to allow for a longer continuous sequence. . James Layton at George Eastman House has already been pulled into the planned project to get these restored, synched, and dropped into existing B&W footage. As usual, I will work on funding as soon as the scope of work is established.

A few years ago two more fragments --- one each of a new GDOB scene with Winnie Lightner and one from ON WITH THE SHOW --- were found by Darren Darren Németh. These were recently professionally scanned with the intent of Eric Grayson and Bruce Burbank Lawton Jr volunteering to restore them. We'll now see about getting them folded into these new discoveries' restoration project. On top of all this, it is also confirmed that a full Technicolor reel of the "Sisters" number of SHOW OF SHOWS also survives. That too will be added to the project.

I have posted some initial frame shots on my Vitaphone Project Facebook page. More to come.

The digging is not over and more info will be passed along soon.

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Changsham
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Re: Early WB Technicolor Vitaphone Nitrate Found!

Unread post by Changsham » Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:20 pm

Very happy to hear this. Is there a chance this colour footage will appear in future Vitaphone compiliations? Will be great to see all these elusive snippets in sound and colour.

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Brooksie
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Re: Early WB Technicolor Vitaphone Nitrate Found!

Unread post by Brooksie » Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:28 pm

Yay, great news! On With The Show in particular cries out for its original colours, I look forward to the new footage! :D

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Re: Early WB Technicolor Vitaphone Nitrate Found!

Unread post by BGM » Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:47 pm

Wow! Great news! Any rediscovered Technicolor is great news. Can't wait to see what has turned up!

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Donald Binks
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Re: Early WB Technicolor Vitaphone Nitrate Found!

Unread post by Donald Binks » Sat Apr 26, 2014 6:01 pm

That's wonderful to see colour still being discovered after all this time. Let's hope that there's still some more out there!
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Re: Early WB Technicolor Vitaphone Nitrate Found!

Unread post by johnboles » Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:52 pm

Have you forgotten about the negatives for some early Technicolor features that were found in the Warner vault:


Price says a “deep search” of Warners’ own vaults recently turned up “a few” two-color Technicolor negatives for features that were only believed to exist in black-and-white versions created for the early TV market (he didn’t disclose any titles).

http://nypost.com/2013/09/28/long-lost- ... -surfaces/" target="_blank


Some of these discovered fragments might belong to films for which a full copy exists in the Warner Vault, however, they are keeping the names of the titles secret for whatever reason...

vitaphone
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Re: Early WB Technicolor Vitaphone Nitrate Found!

Unread post by vitaphone » Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:28 am

No one has forgotten about that separate group of Technicolor finds at WB. Would you?

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David Alp
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Re: Early WB Technicolor Vitaphone Nitrate Found!

Unread post by David Alp » Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:02 pm

vitaphone wrote:
I have posted some initial frame shots on my Vitaphone Project Facebook page. More to come.

I am not on Facebook; Can some kind soul please post them on this thread?? I would love to see them! :D

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David Alp
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Re: Early WB Technicolor Vitaphone Nitrate Found!

Unread post by David Alp » Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:12 pm

Oh yeah! Just read that bit you were talking about: Quote:

Ned Price, head of preservation at Warner Bros., which holds the rights to the pre-1986 MGM film library, says a “deep search” of Warners’ own vaults recently turned up “a few” two-color Technicolor negatives for features that were only believed to exist in black-and-white versions created for the early TV market (he didn’t disclose any titles). “The belief was that we didn’t keep any of them. But you can’t take anything at face value.”

END OF QUOTE.

So I wonder what these mysterious 2-Colour Technicolor films are? That piece has been online now since September 2013, (7 Months!!!!!) and we haven't heard any more! :twisted: How bloody frustrating! Why won't Ned Price say what these features are? I mean it could be "Gold-Diggers Of Broadway" for all we know???

When is the next Vitaphone News out? Does anyone know?

vitaphone
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Re: Early WB Technicolor Vitaphone Nitrate Found!

Unread post by vitaphone » Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:23 pm

Vitaphone News comes out in July and December.

BGM
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Re: Early WB Technicolor Vitaphone Nitrate Found!

Unread post by BGM » Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:43 pm

Since 2015 is the 100th anniversary of Technicolor maybe things "are in the works" concerning what was found in the Warner vault.

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Changsham
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Re: Early WB Technicolor Vitaphone Nitrate Found!

Unread post by Changsham » Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:28 pm

David Alp wrote:Oh yeah! Just read that bit you were talking about: Quote:

Ned Price, head of preservation at Warner Bros., which holds the rights to the pre-1986 MGM film library, says a “deep search” of Warners’ own vaults recently turned up “a few” two-color Technicolor negatives for features that were only believed to exist in black-and-white versions created for the early TV market (he didn’t disclose any titles). “The belief was that we didn’t keep any of them. But you can’t take anything at face value.”

END OF QUOTE.

So I wonder what these mysterious 2-Colour Technicolor films are? That piece has been online now since September 2013, (7 Months!!!!!) and we haven't heard any more! :twisted: How bloody frustrating! Why won't Ned Price say what these features are? I mean it could be "Gold-Diggers Of Broadway" for all we know???

When is the next Vitaphone News out? Does anyone know?
If we look at clues in that statement, these mysterious few are two colour features that were copied into B&W and extant. This may exclude GDOB as it is believed was not copied into B&W.

A few is generally meant to be more than two so maybe there are at least three and Warner/First National titles. Some likely candidates are....
The show of shows.
On with the show.
Sally.
Kiss me again.
Desert song.
The life of the party.
Bright lights
Goldern dawn
Manhattean parade
50 million frenchmen.

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LouieD
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Re: Early WB Technicolor Vitaphone Nitrate Found!

Unread post by LouieD » Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:17 pm

David Alp wrote:So I wonder what these mysterious 2-Colour Technicolor films are? That piece has been online now since September 2013, (7 Months!!!!!) and we haven't heard any more! :twisted: How bloody frustrating! Why won't Ned Price say what these features are? I mean it could be "Gold-Diggers Of Broadway" for all we know???
Maybe they don't want to say anything further because there are too many cine-whiners who CONSTANTLY complain about what is released, what isn't, what's coming out on blu-ray, what's still in archives, "why can't I get a copy of everything", "hey, just put it on you tube", etc. It's not their job to make YOU happy, it's to make sure these films are preserved. As Richard M. Roberts says all the time "you should be darn lucky you're able to to these films at all" and I certainly agree with him. If Warners actually has stuff, it's up to them to choose when is the time to release the news and people CONSTANTLY complaining about stuff like this (you know you are because you complain and whine every time) is not going to get them to move any faster.

And film preservation and restoration is all about patience. There is money to be raised, labs to get involved, restorations to be done, etc. If you don't have the patience, time to find another interest.

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Donald Binks
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Re: Early WB Technicolor Vitaphone Nitrate Found!

Unread post by Donald Binks » Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:42 pm

LouieD wrote:
David Alp wrote:So I wonder what these mysterious 2-Colour Technicolor films are? That piece has been online now since September 2013, (7 Months!!!!!) and we haven't heard any more! :twisted: How bloody frustrating! Why won't Ned Price say what these features are? I mean it could be "Gold-Diggers Of Broadway" for all we know???


Maybe they don't want to say anything further because there are too many cine-whiners who CONSTANTLY complain about what is released, what isn't, what's coming out on blu-ray, what's still in archives, "why can't I get a copy of everything", "hey, just put it on you tube", etc. It's not their job to make YOU happy, it's to make sure these films are preserved. As Richard M. Roberts says all the time "you should be darn lucky you're able to to these films at all" and I certainly agree with him. If Warners actually has stuff, it's up to them to choose when is the time to release the news and people CONSTANTLY complaining about stuff like this (you know you are because you complain and whine every time) is not going to get them to move any faster.

And film preservation and restoration is all about patience. There is money to be raised, labs to get involved, restorations to be done, etc. If you don't have the patience, time to find another interest.


Yes, but I can see no harm in letting us know what gems have been found.
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Donald Binks

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she won't polish them..."You know what she's like." So I said:..."

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LouieD
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Re: Early WB Technicolor Vitaphone Nitrate Found!

Unread post by LouieD » Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:50 pm

Donald Binks wrote:
LouieD wrote:
David Alp wrote:So I wonder what these mysterious 2-Colour Technicolor films are? That piece has been online now since September 2013, (7 Months!!!!!) and we haven't heard any more! :twisted: How bloody frustrating! Why won't Ned Price say what these features are? I mean it could be "Gold-Diggers Of Broadway" for all we know???


Maybe they don't want to say anything further because there are too many cine-whiners who CONSTANTLY complain about what is released, what isn't, what's coming out on blu-ray, what's still in archives, "why can't I get a copy of everything", "hey, just put it on you tube", etc. It's not their job to make YOU happy, it's to make sure these films are preserved. As Richard M. Roberts says all the time "you should be darn lucky you're able to to these films at all" and I certainly agree with him. If Warners actually has stuff, it's up to them to choose when is the time to release the news and people CONSTANTLY complaining about stuff like this (you know you are because you complain and whine every time) is not going to get them to move any faster.

And film preservation and restoration is all about patience. There is money to be raised, labs to get involved, restorations to be done, etc. If you don't have the patience, time to find another interest.


Yes, but I can see no harm in letting us know what gems have been found.
Obviously you don't understand what I wrote above.

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Changsham
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Re: Early WB Technicolor Vitaphone Nitrate Found!

Unread post by Changsham » Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:01 pm

I can't see the point of keeping possible major finds secret. Publicity and talk generates interest. Better to be talked about than ignored. May even attract funding. I seriously doubt a company like Warner's will be cowered by noisy complainers.

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LouieD
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Re: Early WB Technicolor Vitaphone Nitrate Found!

Unread post by LouieD » Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:10 pm

Changsham wrote: I seriously doubt a company like Warner's will be cowered by noisy complainers.
I guess you don't know anyone at Warners then.

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Re: Early WB Technicolor Vitaphone Nitrate Found!

Unread post by Changsham » Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:23 pm

LouieD wrote:
Changsham wrote: I seriously doubt a company like Warner's will be cowered by noisy complainers.
I guess you don't know anyone at Warners then.
Speaking about complaints it has only been you complaing and whining in this thread. Other posters have asked perfectly valid questions over incomplete information of possible major finds. Then you jump in playing the man and not the ball to stir trouble and derail the conversation. You are starting to sound as obnoxious as you mate Mr Roberts.

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LouieD
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Re: Early WB Technicolor Vitaphone Nitrate Found!

Unread post by LouieD » Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:31 pm

Changsham wrote:
LouieD wrote:
Changsham wrote: I seriously doubt a company like Warner's will be cowered by noisy complainers.
I guess you don't know anyone at Warners then.
Speaking about complaints it has only been you complaing and whining in this thread. Other posters have asked perfectly valid questions over incomplete information of possible major finds. Then you jump in playing the man and not the ball to stir trouble and derail the conversation. You are starting to sound as obnoxious as you mate Mr Roberts.
I guess you didn't read what I wrote above either.

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Changsham
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Re: Early WB Technicolor Vitaphone Nitrate Found!

Unread post by Changsham » Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:34 pm

You guess too much.

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Re: Early WB Technicolor Vitaphone Nitrate Found!

Unread post by Jim Reid » Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:07 pm

Louie's got a point. I remember a presentation at Cinecon put on my George Feltenstein from Warners. Someone asked a question that had been asked a million times by one poster on Nitrateville and he rolled his eyes. He said he sees all the posts and just shook his head and said nothing more. A good laugh was had by all present.

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Donald Binks
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Re: Early WB Technicolor Vitaphone Nitrate Found!

Unread post by Donald Binks » Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:34 pm


Yes, but I can see no harm in letting us know what gems have been found.[/quote]

Obviously you don't understand what I wrote above.[/quote]


Yes I did, and I can understand English. I feel though that you seem to confuse asking a harmless question with whining? Still, that's your problem, not mine.
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she won't polish them..."You know what she's like." So I said:..."

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Changsham
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Re: Early WB Technicolor Vitaphone Nitrate Found!

Unread post by Changsham » Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:50 pm

Jim Reid wrote:Louie's got a point. I remember a presentation at Cinecon put on my George Feltenstein from Warners. Someone asked a question that had been asked a million times by one poster on Nitrateville and he rolled his eyes. He said he sees all the posts and just shook his head and said nothing more. A good laugh was had by all present.
I don't see how the example you bring up has anything to do with this thread which is quite fresh. The only point Louie demonstrates here is a tendancy to boorishness.

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Re: Early WB Technicolor Vitaphone Nitrate Found!

Unread post by coolcatdaddy » Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:06 am

Getting back for a moment to Ron's original post about the find of Technicolor excerpts, I'd be curious to know if there's any idea on why these were set aside and saved. Were they scenes cut from some versions of the films? Were they "junked" prints that were cut up for use on home "toy" projectors?

It's curious that the segments of GDOB are the same as what was already found. Why would those same segments turn up again?

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Re: Early WB Technicolor Vitaphone Nitrate Found!

Unread post by LouieD » Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:30 am

Changsham wrote: I don't see how the example you bring up has anything to do with this thread which is quite fresh. The only point Louie demonstrates here is a tendancy to boorishness.
Donald Binks wrote:Yes I did, and I can understand English. I feel though that you seem to confuse asking a harmless question with whining? Still, that's your problem, not mine.


Obviously both of you still can't figure it out.

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Re: Early WB Technicolor Vitaphone Nitrate Found!

Unread post by vitaphone » Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:02 am

To answer coolcatdaddy's question on where these 45-90 second 35mm Technicolor nitrate fragments come from... it's my understanding that toy 35mm projectors were sold in the twenties and early thirties, and these spools, hacked from films no longer thought to be needed, were sold with the projector. So now in many cases these are the only color survivors.

And to follow up on Louie's post, I must say that I fully agree with him and Jim Reid hits it on the head. The post here complained it was 7 months (wow) since Ned Price mentioned (I'm sure he now regrets it) finding some more Technicolor in the vaults. The implication is that Ned has an obligation to report details (I don't even know yet and refuse to pester him). He doesn't. To follow up on Jim's point, if he did list what what found, a few often complaining posters would then complain about WHEN it would be issued on DVD. Then others that it must be on BluRay. I have seen this cycle repeated many times and as I work closely with senior folks at WB and I can tell you it's a constant source of aggravation with a reaction of "aren't these people EVER satisfied?". Warners is light years ahead of all other studios on preservation and DVD issues, so the complaints don't help.

Warner Archive acknowledged they will be putting out the rediscovered HELLO POP on DVD this year, but I have seen posts here and on FB (and have received many emails myself) on when? And others that it must be Blu Ray. So there's another example of why they prefer not to pre -nnounce things. I realize this is only a few people but they give the rest of us a bad name. So my advice parallels Louie's: be patient, appreciate the discoveries and eventual DVD releases, and if you want to do something constructive, don't complain, support restorations at UCLA, GEH or LoC! Whining is for Napa Valley!

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LouieD
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Re: Early WB Technicolor Vitaphone Nitrate Found!

Unread post by LouieD » Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:33 am

vitaphone wrote:To answer coolcatdaddy's question on where these 45-90 second 35mm Technicolor nitrate fragments come from... it's my understanding that toy 35mm projectors were sold in the twenties and early thirties, and these spools, hacked from films no longer thought to be needed, were sold with the projector. So now in many cases these are the only color survivors.

And to follow up on Louie's post, I must say that I fully agree with him and Jim Reid hits it on the head. The post here complained it was 7 months (wow) since Ned Price mentioned (I'm sure he now regrets it) finding some more Technicolor in the vaults. The implication is that Ned has an obligation to report details (I don't even know yet and refuse to pester him). He doesn't. To follow up on Jim's point, if he did list what what found, a few often complaining posters would then complain about WHEN it would be issued on DVD. Then others that it must be on BluRay. I have seen this cycle repeated many times and as I work closely with senior folks at WB and I can tell you it's a constant source of aggravation with a reaction of "aren't these people EVER satisfied?". Warners is light years ahead of all other studios on preservation and DVD issues, so the complaints don't help.

Warner Archive acknowledged they will be putting out the rediscovered HELLO POP on DVD this year, but I understand (and have received many emails myself) on when? And others that it must be Blu Ray. So there's another example of why they prefer not to pre -nnounce things. I realize this is only a few people but they give the rest of us a bad name. So my advice parallels Louie's: be patient, appreciate the discoveries and eventual DVD releases, and if you want to do something constructive, don't complain, support restorations at UCLA, GEH or LoC! Whining is for Napa Valley!
+1

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Donald Binks
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Re: Early WB Technicolor Vitaphone Nitrate Found!

Unread post by Donald Binks » Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:45 am

There are a couple of people in this thread who are proving themselves to be ridiculous.

If someone at Warner Bros. pictures announces that they have found a few more 2 colour Technicolor pictures thought lost, then naturally someone is going to ask what the titles were. It is bleeding obvious.

If said person at Warner Bros. concerned has had prior trouble with previous announcements - then he should not have issued this "teaser". He should have kept quiet until he was more prepared to make an announcement.

I also refuse to be tried by a Kangaroo Court and found guilty of crimes I haven't committed. I haven't whined about anything and I don't even own a Blue Ray machine?

So, can you get off your high perches and get back to having a friendly discussion here on a subject we are all interested in - FILM.

I thank you.
Regards from
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she won't polish them..."You know what she's like." So I said:..."

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Re: Early WB Technicolor Vitaphone Nitrate Found!

Unread post by Harlett O'Dowd » Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:29 am

Donald Binks wrote:There are a couple of people in this thread who are proving themselves to be ridiculous.

If someone at Warner Bros. pictures announces that they have found a few more 2 colour Technicolor pictures thought lost, then naturally someone is going to ask what the titles were. It is bleeding obvious.

If said person at Warner Bros. concerned has had prior trouble with previous announcements - then he should not have issued this "teaser". He should have kept quiet until he was more prepared to make an announcement.

I also refuse to be tried by a Kangaroo Court and found guilty of crimes I haven't committed. I haven't whined about anything and I don't even own a Blue Ray machine?

So, can you get off your high perches and get back to having a friendly discussion here on a subject we are all interested in - FILM.

I thank you.


Mmmmm. Shiraz.

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LouieD
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Re: Early WB Technicolor Vitaphone Nitrate Found!

Unread post by LouieD » Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:42 am

Donald Binks wrote:There are a couple of people in this thread who are proving themselves to be ridiculous.

If someone at Warner Bros. pictures announces that they have found a few more 2 colour Technicolor pictures thought lost, then naturally someone is going to ask what the titles were. It is bleeding obvious.

If said person at Warner Bros. concerned has had prior trouble with previous announcements - then he should not have issued this "teaser". He should have kept quiet until he was more prepared to make an announcement.

I also refuse to be tried by a Kangaroo Court and found guilty of crimes I haven't committed. I haven't whined about anything and I don't even own a Blue Ray machine?

So, can you get off your high perches and get back to having a friendly discussion here on a subject we are all interested in - FILM.

I thank you.
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