The Kid(1921) is it on blu-ray?

[BankofAmericasSweetheart]

Okay I need a decent HD quality copy of this film for a cousin of mine by 1PM pac time today. Does anybody know if this film is available to purchase on blu-ray or a decent quality DVD at least? I'm kinda dreading my cousin's first experience with this film being done via youtube.

[Jim Reid]

If you're set up for streaming Amazon has The Kid, but be careful, because there's two copies. This is the official
Chaplin estate version.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_ ... ds=chaplin" target="_blank

[Rodney]

Yes, I would say with The Kid, the source is much more important than the format (DVD is certainly going to be much better than Youtube, I wouldn't insist on BluRay). But being a public domain film from a well-known comedian, there are some truly atrocious copies available. The ones approved by the Chaplin Estate, or the (mostly out of print) versions produced by David Shepard, should all be excellent choices.

[BenModel]

The OOP version that David Shepard produced, if you can get your hands on it, is the original release version. The Chaplin estate version is the one Chaplin 'revised' when he re-released it when he composed a score for it.

Hopefully this film is in the pipeline of the remaining Chaplin features that Criterion has been releasing on BR.

Ben

[Rodney]

Exactly. The Chaplin estate's official, re-edited version eliminates a lot of back-story for the "kid's" father and mother. Those scenes are filmed in a typically melodramatic 1921 style, and with the exception of one actor playing a theatrical producer, without any comedy. That said, it doesn't add a lot to the running time and makes a more complete story, and gives the audience a breather between comic sequences; so when I can, I show that version. But basically there is as much Chaplin and Coogan in both versions, so for a first viewing, a good transfer with a good score is most important than seeing every scene of Edna and the artist.

[Brent]

For what it's worth, I have the UK mk2/Warner and Shepard-Image DVDs but the European Blu-rays (I've got the UK Park Circus and the slightly superior Danish mk2/Soul Media issues) blow them both away for AV quality.
When Criterion finally deliver, you guys are in for a treat!

[WaverBoy]

Unfortunately, Criterion will be releasing only the cut version of THE KID, thanks to the wrong-headed draconian policy of the Estate. The uncut version contained in the David Shepard-produced Image DVD is the only way to go, plus it includes A DOG'S LIFE, the best short he did for First National. Unfortunately it's going for about $55 used at Amazon.

[Brent]

It truly saddens me, as while the recut films make for interesting alternatives I generally prefer the 'original' versions of Chaplin's post-1918 films and have collected all the Image DVDs.

However, I can tell you directly from the horse's mouth that Association Chaplin have no plans to allow the release of anything other than the 'daddy versions' of his films, in HD or otherwise. Of course, an exception was made in the early 2000s for the Photoplay-restored Gold Rush but their position hasn't budged one inch since then.

Unless somehow someone else entirely takes charge of AC, those original versions are never being released again. That's not going to happen for the foreseeable future, so I've very reluctantly come to terms with the fact that those Image DVDs and the HD 'daddy' versions are all we're ever likely to have...

[All Darc]

Good News: http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/The-Kid-B ... creenshots" target="_blank

This Criterion restoration was also scanned in 4K, not 2K like MK2 restoration, and looks way better.

It was not from original camera negative (despite someone in some report say it still exist), but a first generation material that looks very good, probably a fine grain preservation master, since the images have a very good dynamics range and not some extra grain like original prints.

The Criterion text suggest that the filmm elements used in the restoration was from the original 1921 version, since it needed to be edited to look like Chaplin's 1972 reissue:


"The restoration of The Kid used a 35mm first generation element, preserved by Cineteca di Bologna, scanned at a 4K resolution and edited to match Chaplin's 1972 reissue. A first generation fine grain, in Roy Export's collection, was used to replace a severely decayed portion of roughly 37 feet of the material. The restoration was promoted by Cineteca di Bologna in association with Association Chaplin/Roy Export S.A.S. and the Criterion Collection. Restoration works were carried out at L'immagine Ritrovata laboratory and completed in 2015."

In other words, it's possible to restore the original version with almost prime quality, instead of search for a old print somewhere.


I would like to know who was the Kodak crazy technicia who told a digital restoration company here that up to the 80's no chemical film had more details than 2K.
If we can get better with 4K scans from a 1920 film, even with the inferior lens of that time, how could a 80's color film stock, shoit with good lenses be no better than 2K ???


I'm quite sure Metropolis would get a new digital restoration, in 4K from the original câmera negative and best prints, cause the actual restoration looks too fuzzy. New scanners can do better today. I'm quite sure even the 2K of today it's better than the 2K scanner used in Metropolis. The wet gate they used also did not hlp to preserve the sharpness. Maybe some actual scanner can fill scratches without turn details soft.

[robertelee]

While the version Criterion is putting out is the reissue, they are including the restored cut scenes as a special feature. Someone with editing skills could easily create a hd 1921 version...
source: http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/The-Kid-B ... 39/#Review" target="_blank

[All Darc]

They could have created a second version, for download, for a extra price. This could help finance the restoration of other Chaplin's film.

I don't think a second option would heart the legacy Chaplin's artistry.


Another reference to the existence of the original câmera negative for The Kid (1921):

http://www.davidbush.eu/film-conservation.html" target="_blank

But there is almost a absurd... They said the film was restored in 4K in 1999 rom the original câmera negative.

"Prior to Cinecittà, in 1999, David had worked on a very important restoration on Charlie Chaplin’s film “The Kid” - 1921; with careful handling, he scanned the 35mm. original black and white camera negative in 4k in Rome, and, as significant parts of the negative had very visible fungicidal growth, found and scanned a positive print that had been printed before the damage to the negative had come about. Then the damaged parts were substituted by careful rotoscoping and color balancing work. The restored film was printed and shown to the Chaplin Family. They were so enthralled with the pristine results that they decided to award the keeping of all of their considerable library of films to the “Cineteca di Bologna” from then on."

[mwalls]

Pardon me for being behind in all of this. Still learning silents. I have seen most of the Chaplin films, including The Kid. I was generally aware of the fact that he recut his films in later years, and that sometimes alternate takes were shot for different distribution, etc. What I would want to see, and own, are the original cuts of the film as close as possible and not the re-cuts that he did later in life.

From the above, I gather that most of the versions out there today are the recuts. I also gather that even if an outfit like Criterion were to produce DVD's that the Chaplin Estate would not permit anything but the recut versions to be produced. It was noted above that the original cut versions were available from a company called Image, although now out of print. Were they the only company that produced the original cuts of the Chaplin movies?

Thanks,
Matthew

[All Darc]

Now I'm not sure the original camera negative wasn't used in this Criterion edition.

Sometimes restorers refers as first generation element as the original negative, while other restorers name first generation as the copy or master shot from câmera negative (first generation print).
I'm not sure... since some fine grain masters were so well made, shot, developed etc... that looks almost like a camera negative in a digital transfer.

Anyway I wish City Lights could look that good, as the best surviving material is a dupe negative. Even some mutual titles looks better than City Lights.

[All Darc]

Esconder detalhes
Prioridade normal The Kid (1921), restoration.
De:[email protected]

Para:[email protected]

Cópia:Cópia oculta:Assunto:The Kid (1921), restoration.Data:15/01/2016 10:40
.
David Bush was kind and responded my email.
I'm confused now, because this appears to be a 1999 top job restoration (for the time it was made) of The Kid (1921) that never reached DVD or BD. It was 3K not 4K, but from the original camera negative, and not replacing the damaged portions for dupes, but rotoscoping the deffects and replacing the defects área only, for the balanced image from dupes.


"Dear Mr.

We used the Quantel Domino scanner (belonging to Milan based Interactive, and installed physically in Tecnicolor Rome at the time). This was technically a 3k scanner, although, if I remember rightly, we scanned the black and white negative using all three rgb channels of the scanner to get as much information as possible). It was not 4k, and I’ll correct that on my website.

I worked for Nicola Mazzanti, who, at the time, managed L’immagine Ritrovata in Bologna. It was his idea to show the Chaplin family what could be done, and he showed me the fungus growth in the centre of the image from the original camera negative. He also had a print of the film that had been made before the negative had degenerated. I scanned and matched both, and then composited them together.

The excellent result gave the Chaplin family the impression that L’immagine Ritrovata had the know-how to restore and conserve their archive. Immagine Ritrovata has gone on to become a festival specifically for film restoration held in Bologna once a year (see http://festival.ilcinemaritrovato.it/en/" target="_blank).

I did this work without charge to l’Immagine Ritrovata in the hope that they would desire future professional services from me and Interactive, but, although the Chaplin family awarded restoration and conservation to l’immagine Ritrovata, I never heard from them again, and, to my knowledge they built an internal digital scanning and recording facility.

To my knowledge, the resulting print that Nicola made from the restored negative was projected in Bologna’s main piazza at the Immagine Ritrovata event (must have been 1999 or 2000).

Nicola went on to Los Angeles and then Brussels, and I lost track of him. I don’t know anything about successive work on the film.

All the best,

David Bush"

[Brent]

That email from David Bush is fascinating and certainly consistent with what I know about the chain of events.

Matthew, try reading my Charlie Chaplin Collectors’ Guide. It should answer every question you have and a few you didn't know you had!

[All Darc]

Do you mind to share this chain of events?

David Bush responded again with some few more details he remambered, after I sent a new email suggesting Criterion scanned a modern fine grain shot from the original negative:

"I’m pretty sure that we scanned a fine grain that must have been made from the original camera negative - As you write: "Anyway if it's a fine grain it looks at least like a modern fine grain made with precision copy machines (step contact printers I supose), since modern fine grain can look virtually as good as a camera negative if properly made.”

Forgive me, but nearly two decades have passed - although I don’t recall any splices, and I’m pretty sure that they would not have allowed us to scan the original cut negative, so it must have been as you wrote.

Yes, the Criterion version is by far the best, as you note, and I guess that is derived from the work Interactive did in Technicolor Rome for l’Immagine Ritrovata Maybe Criterion obtained the Arrilaser output “new" negative that was used to make the print that was then projected in Bologna.

Best regards,

David Bush"


He was very nice as you can see. I don't want to bother hin again.

By the way DVD Beaver review, showing better how great is the Criterion edition:

http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film5/blu-ray_ ... lu-ray.htm" target="_blank

That email from David Bush is fascinating and certainly consistent with what I know about the chain of events.

Matthew, try reading my Charlie Chaplin Collectors’ Guide. It should answer every question you have and a few you didn't know you had!