Vampyr

[Real_McCoy]

Here is a page of explanations by Martin Koerber regarding Vampyr.

http://english.carlthdreyer.dk/Films/Va ... ation.aspx" target="_blank

One paragraph I take issue with and I dont want to call the man a liar outright. You be the judge...

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The censorship outtakes

More difficulties were at hand when more substantial changes had to be made to the film, because the German censor demanded certain scenes to be cut. The censorship card B31508 states that the film was 2.271 m long when approved on May 2, 1932, after two cuts had been made: The killing of the vampyre had been abridged by 15 m (it was forbidden to show how Allan and the servant drive the pole into the body), and the suffocation of the Doctor had been abridged by 39 m. Assuming that the requirements of the German censor asked for a new mix of entire scenes, as it would have been impossible to post-cut the images without destroying the music track, one may speculate that Dreyer and Falkenberg re-arranged reel 9 of the German version, after the prints for the other languages had already been struck. This is likely because the surviving prints of the French version have the scenes that never made it to the German screens, but it is impossible to re-insert them into the German version, because the continuity of images and sounds is different in the two versions. Thus it was decided to keep the versions as found, but to preserve the French ending on a separate reel, so that the differences can be studied.

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The man says he cant restore the censor shots. However they are perfectly ok as extra scenes.
I don't agree. Its not impossible and from the looks of it its very POSSIBLE. IT WAS DECIDED! Decided by him.
This is just more bullshit to put out a bad restoration. There is no talking in the cut scenes. So nobody would know
anything and a viewer would have a complete movie to enjoy. I'll say it. Koerber is insane. He needs to quit his job and leave the movie business.

[DShepFilm]

McCoy, what have you done for the art and preservation of cinema compared to Martin Koerber, whom you have the arrogance to judge? A nicely numbered list of your impressive accomplishments would suffice.

David Shepard

[Real_McCoy]

I am up here presenting the truth of a corrupt restoration. First of all Friedrich Wilhelm Murnau Stiftung paid for the restoration. But because they {{{ DECIDED }}} to leave footage out that belongs in the movie, they removed their name from the operation and Koerber told the big lie all by hisself.

David it requires no arrogance to judge a liar. They implied the footage was intact in the french version. I bought the "FRENCH" version. It is the GERMAN version with French subtitles. There is no FRENCH version. All they did was create a GERMAN CENSORED VERSION.
Listen man if you want to try and erect a straw man ME then take your ball and go home. Its a lame argument.

Koerber wrote this big "story" where neatly inserted halfway thru is the BIG LIE. That it was IMPOSSIBLE to restore censored footage. David you must be delusional to try and nail me. You just agreed with me by doing that. Everybody DAVID AGREES WITH ME!

[Arndt]

I cannot be the only one unhappy about this poster's incoherent conspiracy-theory rants on this otherwise very competent forum. It has gone past funny.

[Danny Burk]

I cannot be the only one unhappy about this poster's incoherent conspiracy-theory rants on this otherwise very competent forum. It has gone past funny.

No, you're not the only one. The other moderators and I will discuss Mr McCoy today.

[entredeuxguerres]

I cannot be the only one unhappy about this poster's incoherent conspiracy-theory rants on this otherwise very competent forum. It has gone past funny.

No, you're not the only one. The other moderators and I will discuss Mr McCoy today.

Isn't tolerance of "incoherent rants" the unfortunate cost of free speech? And consider that the more incoherent and nonsensical the rant, the easier it is to dismiss and ignore. He who wishes to make an ass of himself should not be denied that privilege. (So long, at any rate, as that privilege is not exercised TOO frequently.)

[Arndt]

I cannot be the only one unhappy about this poster's incoherent conspiracy-theory rants on this otherwise very competent forum. It has gone past funny.

No, you're not the only one. The other moderators and I will discuss Mr McCoy today.

Isn't tolerance of "incoherent rants" the unfortunate cost of free speech? And consider that the more incoherent and nonsensical the rant, the easier it is to dismiss and ignore. He who wishes to make an ass of himself should not be denied that privilege. (So long, at any rate, as that privilege is not exercised TOO frequently.)

Unfortunately a lot of discussions and forums on the internet fall victim to trolls and their rants. I guess free speech requires constant vigilance if it is to work.

[TerryC]

I am afraid I would agree with a ban of "Mr. McCoy". His incoherent rambles make no sense to me at all. At first I thought perhaps that English was a problem for him but the more I read of his rambles, I get the impression that he has jumped in the deep end of a pool in Crazy Land.

[boblipton]

I understand the issues that the people in charge have with maintaining some manner of decorum; I have privately told individuals on this board that they have been doing themselves no service by intemperate language. However, I am a supporter of free speech in all its messy wackiness, so I think that if Mr. McCoy annoys you sufficiently, ignoring him is the best course of action.

It took me several readings to understand his point -- sans issues of moral turpitude or some vast conspiracy to withhold the One True Vampyr. I admit to a wish that they'd stop finding additional footage of Metropolis and restoring it to the already bloated version; sometimes the desire not to sit through the 19-reel version of Greed strikes me as eminently sane. Nonetheless, after reading Mr. McCoy's thoughts here, my takeaway is....

1: the latest restoration of Vampyr lacks the footage removed by the German censors in 1932.

2: the footage exists in other versions.

3: I don't find the offered reasons compelling. Does anyone here have any insight into this exclusion?

4: if either of the first two statements is wrong, please let me know.

This strikes me as an interesting question, and had Mr. McCoy not phrased his post so truculently, he might have gotten a useful answer.

There are other threads on Nitrateville I don't wish to see. The recent one on Mickey Rooney being dug up is one of them. Don't get me wrong. It is an appropriate news story for Nitrateville; it's just that the only appropriate outcome involves everyone involved coming down with festering boils in manners describable only by ancient people speaking Yiddish and spitting. There are others I don't read because I don't care. I don't understand how there are three or four additions to the thread "Is the Wind on dvd" every day, but I am not interested enough to discover how it can sustain such variations in discussion.

But there you are. If you don't wish to read such nonsense as displeases you, then don't. And try to assume that people here are quite willing to go out of their ways to help you, asking only a little courtesy in return.

Bob

[entredeuxguerres]

...sometimes the desire not to sit through the 19-reel version of Greed strikes me as eminently sane.
Bob

Sometimes??? I could, on the other hand, appreciate its entertainment value to a lifer in solitary.

George Sidney demonstrated, I think, a restrained version of that Yiddish expectoration in one of the pictures I watched last night, The Heart of New York (1932).

[Real_McCoy]

If you have a movie discussion board - what am I doing but discussing a movie? You people need to quit judging me and read what I am saying. David implied that because I have never restored a movie, I am not entitled to an opinion. BTW I did restore END OF ST. PETERSBURG and you can buy it from Grapevine. I sent them 3 missing scenes.

THERE IS NO NEED FOR MODERATION. I am talking about a movie.

one man TERRYC posted a personal attack aimed at me. That remark merits removal

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Posts: 89
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:01 pm

Re: Vampyr

PostThu Dec 31, 2015 10:38 am
I am afraid I would agree with a ban of "Mr. McCoy". His incoherent rambles make no sense to me at all. At first I thought perhaps that English was a problem for him but the more I read of his rambles, I get the impression that he has jumped in the deep end of a pool in Crazy Land.

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Besides if you do not have VAMPYR, then you might not know a thing about my point. In that case allow me to educate you.

VAMPYR is a French movie. It was filmed in France. Murnau inc. created a German only version. I have a problem with that.

I own a Timeless vhs tape of VAMPYR which has Danish writing on it. the pages of the Vampire Book are in Danish. The writing on the book paper wrapping: ---- "To be opened in the event of my death" ---- is in Danish. There is writing on the coffin lid ---- "Ashes To Ashes Dust To Dust" ---- is in Danish. The End credit "SLUT" is Danish.
Murnau Inc. / Koerber could and should have created a Danish version. If they did do so and I am unaware then strike this paragraph from the record.

I was not at the scene in Bologna when THE DECISION went down. Maybe I'm wrong but I believe THE DECISION has to do -/is punishment over PASSION OF JOAN OF ARC. There is really no rational reason to exclude cut scenes. If Dreyer made a great movie then he made a great movie. The word restoration means RESTORE = PUT BACK not EXCLUDE. Its nobodys business making DECISIONS contrary to the authors intent. The Friedrich Wilhelm Murnau Stiftung OVERRULED Dreyer. He handed in a complete movie for exhibition. The Murnau people have a nasty habit of overruling the authors they claim to be celebrating.
I have not read any reviews that mention the cut scenes. You would think it might be worthy of it.

One of the best films ever made, VAMPYR like Metropolis received shabby treatment from these people and then big lies were put forth to justify it.

[tthacker]

I think the decision to not restore the final reel to it's pre-censored state was the right one. It at least gets us as close as we'll probably ever get to seeing the film as it was originally released (the German version was released several months before the French one). Sure, the French version may represent the film as Dreyer intended it, but since that version still exists, I don't know why anyone would have an issue with a restoration of the German version.

[monks19]

Why don't tehy release on dvd/bluray all the avalaible versions ? AFAIK, there's only the french and german versions that still exist today anyway (unless I'm wrong). It's not a big deal after all. On another note, I'm still waiting for a release (even as a bonus, it they all still exist) of the French release of M, Blau Angel, the english release of three penny Opera, etc. Anyway:

HAPPY 2016 PEOPLE !!!

[TerryC]

I think the problem with the opinion of some people on this thread is the notion that one particular company, that puts out DVDs of silent movies, would be involved in some sort of devious conspiracy to ruin particular films. It sounds ridiculously paranoid, especially in the rather vulgar language used. I certainly agree with artistic disagreements and criticism, but to interpret this as a specific slight done on purpose for evil is unnerving.

[Arndt]

I quite often have problems understanding decisions taken by institutions like the Murnaustiftung for artistic, conservational or commercial reasons. My bugbears include:

- Why do they not make more of their archival holdings available?
- Why do they choose a particular musical accompaniment for a film?
- Why do they choose particular film materials for their restored versions and not others?
- Why do they sometimes use excessive tinting?
- Why do they not keep the public better informed about their work, ongoing restorations and upcoming releases.

I believe that sometimes they make bad choices through lack of funds, incompetence, ideological narrow-mindedness, complacency or indifference. I find that very frustrating.

However I do not think there is a conspiracy at work to deprive film lovers of decent copies or to put out deliberately mutilated versions of films.

If you genuinely feel the world is conspiring against you then a few cut scenes from an old film should be the least of your worries.

[monks19]

I quite often have problems understanding decisions taken by institutions like the Murnaustiftung for artistic, conservational or commercial reasons. My bugbears include:

- Why do they not make more of their archival holdings available?
- Why do they choose a particular musical accompaniment for a film?
- Why do they choose particular film materials for their restored versions and not others?
- Why do they sometimes use excessive tinting?
- Why do they not keep the public better informed about their work, ongoing restorations and upcoming releases.

I believe that sometimes they make bad choices through lack of funds, incompetence, ideological narrow-mindedness, complacency or indifference. I find that very frustrating.

However I do not think there is a conspiracy at work to deprive film lovers of decent copies or to put out deliberately mutilated versions of films.

If you genuinely feel the world is conspiring against you then a few cut scenes from an old film should be the least of your worries.

Yeah. FW Murnaustiftung does have an array of questionable decisions in their workings and not just for for what Arndt said earlyer. But I'm wondering one thing, where does the funds coming from ? And most importantly, why not doing any crowfunding and be more open toward the public ? They're not the only one in that case. Nearly every preservation/restauration institutions don't say much. Yes, some may say when the begin and when they finish (which is rarely, unless your a private individual). AFAIK, Lobster films is among the very few institution that goes that far (they did it for the recent Keaton project). But that is not saying much.

[wich2]

He who wishes to make an ass of himself should not be denied that privilege. (So long, at any rate, as that privilege is not exercised TOO frequently.)

You yourself have said it: on a privately owned board such as this, such is a PRIVILEGE, not a right. And one that always to be balanced against the majority's right not to have waste water in the drinking pool.

[Mike Gebert]

To do my own summing-up, as Bob did— Mr. Koerber explained why you couldn't just stick the extra French footage back in, McCoy thinks you can. So if you have the disc, we live in the golden age of doing it yourself and putting it on YouTube for all to see. Lets see!

My guess is that all this is very much like the situation with the Chaplin shorts— there are two ways to look at restoring something, one involves getting every last scrap of footage for history's sake and one prioritizes making a smoothly watchable version true to 19XX that provides pleasure today to audiences and shows why people loved Chaplin. (Though pleasure may be asking rather a lot of Vampyr.) But the people who find option A obvious and the only acceptable one jump quickly to denunciation of option B as a plot.

In any case, the intemperate language toward Mr. Koerber, which verges on libel, is not something we will tolerate here. By definition I don't believe that anybody in film restoration is looking to make money underhandedly, maybe in Rohauer's day but not in 2015's marketplace. Nor is there a plot to keep you from seeing certain things... which are then included anyway on the same disc. I don't want to cut this short when it might go somewhere worthwhile, but it would be wise to demonstrate that quickly.

[entredeuxguerres]

...(Though pleasure may be asking rather a lot of Vampyr.)...

To better judge what all this commotion is about, I've spent the last couple of days searching fruitlessly for my copy, recorded years ago from TCM. I watched it once, thought it largely a bore (especially compared with Nosferatu!), and had no further interest in seeing it ever again, until this furor arose.

[boblipton]

...(Though pleasure may be asking rather a lot of Vampyr.)...

To better judge what all this commotion is about, I've spent the last couple of days searching fruitlessly for my copy, recorded years ago from TCM. I watched it once, thought it largely a bore (especially compared with Nosferatu!), and had no further interest in seeing it ever again, until this furor arose.

Except for the POV grave shots, I thought it combined the worst aspects of sound film with those of silents.


Bob

[Real_McCoy]

On another note, I'm still waiting for a release (even as a bonus, it they all still exist) of the French release of M, Anyway:

HAPPY 2016 PEOPLE !!!

I have the French version of M which I'll gladly put at your disposal.

FYI moderator: personal attacks on me need to be removed. If I made a joke it was removed..... hmmmm If I attack somebody I get removed. fair is fair.

It is not possible to restore the cut scenes in VAMPYR. Because our german overlords removed the sound from the surrounding scenes. They needed to make French & Danish versions. Anyway Murnau Stiftung removing their name from the project TELLS YOU EVERYTHING.

[Mike Gebert]

Oh, I do enjoy being told what the moderators must do by the person who has roused us into action in the first place. I rule that the judgements on the quality of your comments, as opposed to ad hominem attacks (which I do not see here), are fair game.

It is not possible to restore the cut scenes in VAMPYR. Because our german overlords removed the sound from the surrounding scenes. They needed to make French & Danish versions.

In any case, I still don't quite follow. They put out the German version exactly as it was, but removed some sound from where it was? They can't have done both. And how, in this day and age, were French and Danish versions dependent on marring the German version? What am I misunderstanding?

Anyway Murnau Stiftung removing their name from the project TELLS YOU EVERYTHING.

I don't think so. I can imagine many scenarios in which it was not released under their name— someone else owned the project and they did restoration work for hire, someone else paid for it, who knows? What evidence do you have that this is a project that they chose to repudiate? Does he still work for them on other projects?

[tthacker]

It is not possible to restore the cut scenes in VAMPYR. Because our german overlords removed the sound from the surrounding scenes. They needed to make French & Danish versions. Anyway Murnau Stiftung removing their name from the project TELLS YOU EVERYTHING.

Although the German censors asked for changes, it was Dreyer and his editor who made the decision to recut the scenes in such a way as to make it impossible to later restore it to it's original state. To me, that suggests that he wasn't happy with the final reel to begin with. As for why the French version would not have been similarly re-edited, perhaps the cost of making changes to a film that already had a disastrous opening in Germany didn't seem worth the effort. And indeed it would not have been worth it considering the equally poor reception it received in France.

[Donald Binks]

I think Mr. McCoy has well and truly exhausted his argument. We have been made aware of his opinions numerous times and it is time he gave them a rest.

Rather than ventilate these opinions continuously and increasingly pointlessly I think it would be a good idea if he set up his own Foundation and restored films himself. That to me seems a logical conclusion for him to find true happiness.

[Real_McCoy]

all i did was create a thread about a movie. and that appears to be the norm here.

BECAUSE I started a thread about a movie does not make me a very bad person. I am telling you that starting a thread about a movie does not invite personal attacks on me. telling you to ban me.

If you so-called movie experts are actually experts you'd be falling all over yourselves agreeing with me. Like I said a million years ago "If 400 million people disagreed with me they'd still be wrong."

I don't have time to educate you all but I TRIED to enlighten you to the best degree I could. That it was met with hostility denotes the degree of ignorance encountered.

I pointed you in the right direction. The rest of the journey you are on your own.

Look you need a reason to ban me. The fact you want to ban me is absurd since you need me to educate you.

[telical]

all i did was create a thread about a movie. and that appears to be the norm here.

BECAUSE I started a thread about a movie does not make me a very bad person. I am telling you that starting a thread about a movie does not invite personal attacks on me. telling you to ban me.

If you so-called movie experts are actually experts you'd be falling all over yourselves agreeing with me. Like I said a million years ago "If 400 million people disagreed with me they'd still be wrong."

I don't have time to educate you all but I TRIED to enlighten you to the best degree I could. That it was met with hostility denotes the degree of ignorance encountered.

I pointed you in the right direction. The rest of the journey you are on your own.

Look you need a reason to ban me. The fact you want to ban me is absurd since you need me to educate you.

I'm not directing this following sentence at you but just using it to make a point.
In psychology there is something called "infantile grandiosity" which often has a type of rage accompanying in it.
Well adjusted adults are able to handle and refine any anger and assertiveness, whereas less adjusted people have this
uncontrolled level of hostility that comes out when provoked enough. Maybe you were being kind of loose in your humor when you depict the foundation as an evil conspiracy. It's obviously intended as a joke by you that you take it on yourself to completely educate everyone on this forum. It's true there is a modernist edge that sometimes seems to want to edit certain memes out of modern culture. "Revisionism" is often complained about. But you really need to take some classes in writing because I don't think you realize at times what you really mean to say from what in plain English you are really saying. It takes some practice and I think your level of observation is advanced enough to be in a good dialog with others if you just take some time to think about what you are trying to accomplish more.

[Real_McCoy]

RESTORE (definition)

return (someone or something) to a former condition.

"the effort to restore VAMPYR ended in failure"

repair or renovate (a building, WORK OF ART, vehicle, etc.) so as to return it to its original condition and meaning.

"the VAMPYR 'restoration' was deliberately sabotaged"

OK Class ----- write 500 times ALL of the above. Then meet me in the detention hall for punishment.

[boblipton]

When tempers rise in discussions at the sites where I try to contribute, I sometimes think of this cartoon.

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png" target="_blank" target="_blank

Bob

[Danny Burk]

I think this discussion is going nowhere further.....I'll close it now and we can move on.

[Danny Burk]

Updating: Mr McCoy is no longer with us.

If anyone would like to continue the thread appropriately, feel free.