KEATON BOX SET FROM EUREKA COMING SOON

[R. Cat]

I think the reason Eureka did it different is because some people balk at I instead of P after the 1080. Kino does that too, to the consternation of the people who hate judder. Shepard claimed that the original cue sheets called for 67 minutes and 26 fps. The Spanish release is definitely faster than the old Kino. The back cover time may be a typo, or perhaps it includes some sort of restoration titles that have been tacked on. However the film speed is different and I really like it, because combined with the fantastic 4K transfer, it gives the film a live presence that is rare in silent films. Kind of like Todd AO in 30 frames, just not quite that pronounced. If you're going to own more than one copy of this, I'd suggest the Spanish one for the film and the Eureka one for the extras. (I have the Kino one, but I am giving it away for a Christmas present this year.)

When my Eureka set arrives I'll make a point of watching The General first and leave my impressions based on comparisons with an earlier KINO edition. Unfortunately, I don't own the Spanish release or I'd do an A/B comparison of that edition as well. I've done some research on judder to better understand it's overall impact on the viewing experience. Much of the criticism of progressive scans susceptibility to judder is overblown and, when present, mileage varies (case by case).

If there are detectable issues, I'll report them here.

[bigshot]

Judder won't be much of an issue if the film is 24 fps. It's more of a problem with 18 fps. If they did The General at 26 fps without interlacing, there would probably be judder.

[Roscoe]

I got the set the other day -- did a cursory check of some favorite moments in GENERAL and SHERLOCK, and was most impressed. The picture is crystal clear and feels properly balanced -- there's none of the bleached out look that has cursed some other releases. I didn't notice any judder.

And last night's full-out watch of THE GENERAL was most enjoyable. It just looks great, and Carl Davis' score is one of the best I know of. This will be my go-to home video version of the film.

[R. Cat]

I got the set the other day -- did a cursory check of some favorite moments in GENERAL and SHERLOCK, and was most impressed. The picture is crystal clear and feels properly balanced -- there's none of the bleached out look that has cursed some other releases. I didn't notice any judder.

And last night's full-out watch of THE GENERAL was most enjoyable. It just looks great, and Carl Davis' score is one of the best I know of. This will be my go-to home video version of the film.

Excellent report, Roscoe!

My set arrived an hour ago. (woo-hoo!)

Note: Reviews of Eureka's MoC Keaton set are starting to pop-up on the web. For those on the fence, if there are still sets available, I wouldn't procrastinate. At 3000 copies, this ltd. ed. set will be OOP before the end of the year and selling at a premium through eBay marketers.

Judder won't be much of an issue if the film is 24 fps. It's more of a problem with 18 fps. If they did The General at 26 fps without interlacing, there would probably be judder.

Follow-up: The MoC presentation states the same running time as the Spanish language version (67 min.). Judder not being a factor, the only mystery remaining is how an interlaced film scanned at 26 fps can have the exact same running time as as a progressive scanned film locked into 24 fps. Hopefully, someone will be able to unravel this curious conundrum.

[bigfranco]

I can't find the USA blue ray anywhere online...
Already sold out?

Help please.

[bigshot]

The Kino blu-rays are at Amazon.

[Stonesfan]

Is Cohen or someone planning on releasing these in the States? I'm assuming these are different (and superior to) the Lobster restorations Kino released last year? (Though it was nice to get the Gaylord Carter score for SBJ on blu!)7

[SilentsPlease]

Kino and Lobster are having a concurrent Keaton restoration thing going on, and naturally they want US customers to buy Kino discs. This is a rare situation we are having here: two parties (Kino and Eureka) using different film elements of the same films for Blu-ray released virtually at the same time (and more to come). Usually we have two parties, same elements, same or different release dates, such as Kino and Eureka's discs of "Metropolis" and other Murnau Foundation-restored titles. Or we have two parties, different elements, different release dates, as in the cases when newer restorations surpassing older ones. Here we have two COMPETING restoration projects going on at the same time for the same films! So I'm predicting their discs will be region-locked all the way. This is the ESSENCE of why the industry created region locks: to prevent consumers from importing stuff from COMPETING markets. Cohen/Eureka seem to have won Round 1 with "The General" and we'll just have to wait and see for the other titles. For those waiting for this new version to come to the US, don't hold your breath, as some titles just don't cross over. E.g., the US only got the Blackhawk version of the "The Phantom of the Opera" on Blu-ray, while the Photoplay version was only released on Blu-ray by BFI in the UK.

[Rick Lanham]

I bought the Eureka set and… it's a blast!
Well, maybe I exaggerate, but I'm a fan.

First, there's a lovely picture of Buster in Civil War uniform on the front of the box.

There's a booklet full of pictures, some of which I don't remember seeing before.

I watched Sherlock, Jr. first, my favorite Sherlock movie, score by Timothy Brock. Since that is a short film, they add in a documentary of Keaton's life. It's called Buster Keaton: The Genius Destroyed by Hollywood. It rivals A Hard Act to Follow in quality. The only bad thing about it, it's under an hour long. There's also commentary and an extra on filming locations, and more!

Next up was The General, score by Carl Davis. What a great movie, runs like a clock. Extras include those intros by Orson Welles and Gloria Swanson, home movie footage, filming locations, and more!

I haven't gotten to Steamboat Bill, Jr., yet. Score by Carl Davis. Extras include Buster on a Wagon Train episode, that I don't remember seeing, an audio recording of a Buster Keaton interview, and more!

Rick

[Danny Burk]

Yet again, a perfect example why everyone should have a region-free player...

[Brooksie]

The latest (25 January) episode of the Damfino's new Buster Keaton podcast focuses on the relative merits of the various available box sets and special editions.

For those who are on Facebook, there's even a handy diagram - https://www.facebook.com/BusterKeatonSo ... =3&theater.

[Doff Hat]

Follow-up: The MoC presentation states the same running time as the Spanish language version (67 min.). Judder not being a factor, the only mystery remaining is how an interlaced film scanned at 26 fps can have the exact same running time as as a progressive scanned film locked into 24 fps. Hopefully, someone will be able to unravel this curious conundrum.

So what is the run-time of this Eureka MoC version of The General - what time does it run to on the blu-ray player time counter? Is the "67 min" only stated on the packaging, or is this the actual run-time?

[Rick Lanham]

So what is the run-time of this Eureka MoC version of The General - what time does it run to on the blu-ray player time counter? Is the "67 min" only stated on the packaging, or is this the actual run-time?

Actually the Eureka packaging states that The General is 75 minutes.

I just scanned the film on my US-based region-free player (if that makes a time/speed difference).
After some introductory logos for Cohen and LOC (50 seconds), the film ended at 79 minutes. So 78 minutes actual content.

The box set states that all three films total 191 minutes, which agrees with the total of what is on each disc's packaging. (not including bonuses/extras)

Rick

[bigshot]

So it seems that the Spanish disc is 26 fps and the Eureka is 24 fps, both from the same film scan.

[Rodney]

So it seems that the Spanish disc is 26 fps and the Eureka is 24 fps, both from the same film scan.

What's weird about this is that most of these releases share musical scores. Sometimes the scores are just sped up and pitch corrected, but that's starting to get a little extreme (to the point where violin vibratos can start to sound unnatural).

[bigshot]

Or is it slowed down? I would guess that the Spanish release is closest to what Cineteca Bologna did with the film, but who knows. The Spanish disc looks fantastic and smooth. I know that.

[Doff Hat]

The Spanish disc is 1080i 25fps according to the disc info at this link:
http://www.mundodvd.com/capturas_bluray ... sa-118674/" target="_blank" target="_blank

That would mean it is encoded at 25i (50i). So if it is 26fps, does that mean it has dropped frames/fields, to fit? Or is it more likely the Spanish release is 25fps, much like the Thames silent version.

What I don't understand is further down that disc info it states the runtime as 79 minutes 24 seconds - same as the Eureka (seemingly) 24p version! I don't know how long any added intros and outros are on that disc, but at that timing they would have to be longer than the Eureka disc if it's running faster at 25/26 fps.

The Carl Davis score was originally done for the Thames Silent version. So wouldn't that have originally been made for the (mostly) 25fps projection speed. If so, wouldn't that mean slowing down for 24fps and speeding up for 26fps.

I'm still also confused about where this 67 minute runtime figure comes from? It's on IMDb at the top, and have seen it quoted on here and elsewhere. Is it a misprint of 107 minutes (the 18fps 1h47m version) or 76 minutes. Or was there a version ever referenced at this run-time. Only way I calculated 67m is from working out the 7500 feet length - stated on the AFI website - at about NTSC ~30 fps ?

That 7500 feet figure from the AFI website confuses me too. 24fps = 90 feet/minute so runtime at that rate would come to just over 83 minutes. However, the kino blu-ray at 24p (along with Eureka) comes to about 78 minutes content (without intros/outros). Same time apparently with the older Kino DVD at NTSC 23.976 fps. So what happened to those 5 minutes? Is that 7500 feet figure a round up, and not so accurate, or does it contain more than just movie content. Was there some kind of 5 minute film leader content or something back then?

[Keatonesque]

Given the superior quality of these three films included in this box-set (and the complete shorts collection), can we expect Eureka to respectively release more Keaton features scanned in 4K courtesy of photochemical restorations from Cineteca di Bologna and Cohen Film Collection at the L'Immagine Ritrovata laboratory in Bologna, whether individually or in another box-set? The new restorations vastly improve on what KINO has had to offer. Any chance they may get to the following:

Our Hospitality
The Navigator
Seven Chances
Battling Butler

Or should we expect all of Keaton's remaining features to get this treatment? Would it include The Cameraman and Spite Marriage?

[Silentvalerio]

Unfortunately the titles of the MGM as The Cameraman and Spite Marriage will not be restored by the Immagine Ritrovata / Cineteca di Bologna: because I knew from an internal source that all the films that will be restored will be all the works of Keaton: from shorts (excluding those under Arbuckle) to Steamboat Bill Jr. (1928).
Also I was really disappointed to discover this unfortunate news.

[Rodney]

Unfortunately the titles of the MGM as The Cameraman and Spite Marriage will not be restored by the Immagine Ritrovata / Cineteca di Bologna: because I knew from an internal source that all the films that will be restored will be all the works of Keaton: from shorts (excluding those under Arbuckle) to Steamboat Bill Jr. (1928).
Also I was really disappointed to discover this unfortunate news.

Well, that's not too surprising, really: The Cameraman and Spite Marriage are owned by a different company. They do make the films readily available for screenings, and with luck someday that Buster Keaton collection from MGM/Turner will be released in an upgraded resolution.

[Keatonesque]

Unfortunately the titles of the MGM as The Cameraman and Spite Marriage will not be restored by the Immagine Ritrovata / Cineteca di Bologna: because I knew from an internal source that all the films that will be restored will be all the works of Keaton: from shorts (excluding those under Arbuckle) to Steamboat Bill Jr. (1928).
Also I was really disappointed to discover this unfortunate news.

Well, that's not too surprising, really: The Cameraman and Spite Marriage are owned by a different company. They do make the films readily available for screenings, and with luck someday that Buster Keaton collection from MGM/Turner will be released in an upgraded resolution.

I assumed there was no chance those two would be included since they are in the hands of Warner. I've read rumors of Criterion being interested, but nothing beyond speculation. I'm not sure who else would give them the same treatment as all the others are receiving courtesy of Cineteca di Bologna. I do hope Eureka will keep releasing these. Is there any way of knowing which Keaton films are being prioritized for restoration this year, such as a list like the Pickford Foundation has?

[bigshot]

The Cameraman has been aired in HD on Warner Archive Instant. That is usually an indication that it might eventually come out on WA blu-ray.

[Keatonesque]

The Cameraman has been aired in HD on Warner Archive Instant. That is usually an indication that it might eventually come out on WA blu-ray.

Rumor has it a release date has been set for 2025.

[azjazzman]

I think we've hit the wall with image quality of silent films with blu-ray. I doubt UHD would make much of a difference. The reason 4K mastering is good for silent films is that it gives more latitude for restoration. It won't really add any resolution, and the advanced color is wasted on B&W films.

Whenever there is a technological advance that permits a wider, more precise color gamut (such as DCI-P3 support in the 4K standard) there is always a corresponding increase in grayscale linearity and dynamic range.

In other words, when the color gets an advance, the B&W gets better, too.

[Jim Roots]

I think we've hit the wall with image quality of silent films with blu-ray. I doubt UHD would make much of a difference. The reason 4K mastering is good for silent films is that it gives more latitude for restoration. It won't really add any resolution, and the advanced color is wasted on B&W films.

Whenever there is a technological advance that permits a wider, more precise color gamut (such as DCI-P3 support in the 4K standard) there is always a corresponding increase in grayscale linearity and dynamic range.

In other words, when the color gets an advance, the B&W gets better, too.

But at what point of perfection does it cease being the film Keaton actually made?

Jim

[s.w.a.c.]

I think we've hit the wall with image quality of silent films with blu-ray. I doubt UHD would make much of a difference. The reason 4K mastering is good for silent films is that it gives more latitude for restoration. It won't really add any resolution, and the advanced color is wasted on B&W films.

Whenever there is a technological advance that permits a wider, more precise color gamut (such as DCI-P3 support in the 4K standard) there is always a corresponding increase in grayscale linearity and dynamic range.

In other words, when the color gets an advance, the B&W gets better, too.

But at what point of perfection does it cease being the film Keaton actually made?

When Peter Jackson gets his hands on it?

[R. Cat]

Whenever there is a technological advance that permits a wider, more precise color gamut (such as DCI-P3 support in the 4K standard) there is always a corresponding increase in grayscale linearity and dynamic range.

In other words, when the color gets an advance, the B&W gets better, too.

But at what point of perfection does it cease being the film Keaton actually made?

When Peter Jackson gets his hands on it?