Amazon Removes Birth of a Nation.

[Red Bartlett]

The current book burning, desecration, cancel culture, etc. is not about protecting people from "hateful content" or anything lofty and holy like that. Anyone can produce a list of hateful things that isn't getting banned, desecrated or burned. So there's no need to waste your time and intellect on that discussion.

What this is, is an attempt at a communist revolution. I know, sounds crazy. But that's what it is unfortunately.

In order to be successful it has to remove some obstacles. The first is to denigrate the host -- which is America. They're attempting to shame Americans, Western culture and YOU into giving up western, capitalist ideals. So this is the shaming and fear process. Again, it's not about BoaN -- it's about YOU and shaming YOU.

Ever wonder what the connection was between police brutality and kneeling for the flag and the national anthem? In case you weren't asking that question, that's ok -- it's all happening so fast. It's the link to the next phase of the communist revolution: shame America first, then defund its police. It's quite a leap, but it worked.

Defunding cops has nothing to do with injustice or righting wrongs -- as evidenced by all the violent crimes that get zero attention, or the fact that removing police would actually HURT a neighborhood. So don't waste your time and intellect on that one either. Another decoy.

The reason for defunding police is to simply get them out of the way so they can challenge YOU directly. Physically. Physically challenge YOU. Police are the largest obstacle between them and YOURSELF. Even though decent people greatly outnumber these communist revolutionaries, are YOU prepared for the next phase, if we get there?

I don't think we will, but I don't have a crystal ball either. I'm watching this unfold like you. However, I do know that communist revolutionaries can lie dormant -- FOR YEARS. Like many viruses, they can be re-activated in 5, 10 or 20 years when they think they have a better chance. They'll use the downtime to convert more kids. If they can't convince YOU to give up, maybe they can convince your kids or grandkids.




Sorry to be so bleak. But these little baby-steps -- destroying statues, movie banning, kneeling, defunding police -- do have a larger purpose and it's not a good one. And I can prove it. How? Easy.... most public forums will be feared into banning or shamming these very thoughts. Think about it -- what are THEY afraid of?

[Frame Rate]

And now the Good Humor man mustn't play "Turkey in the Straw" any more, since (long after its composition) some racist lyrics were substituted when it was performed in minstrel shows!

Well... loud, proud, public virtue-signaling about one's own political correctness is nothing new:

To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable:

‘Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: “God, I thank you that I am not like other people – robbers, evildoers, adulterers – or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.”

‘But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, “God, have mercy on me, a sinner.”

‘I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God.'

Luke 18:9-14a

[bigshot]

And I also don't think anyone said that horrors should not be depicted either on canvas or the silver screen. But horrors are not the same as displaying sentiments and depictions that are offensive towards an entire race of people.

Could you please link me to a list of things that are acceptable subjects for art and which ones aren't?

[R. Cat]

This thread won't be locked as long as there is no name-calling and it sticks to the topic of race-relations and film.

And lets remember that it is still possible to "Back the Blue" but condemn excessive use of force and racial profiling by some police officers. It is possible to support "Black Lives Matter" and still condemn looting and violent protesters.

There also isn't any official list of what is racially offensive and what is not. Amazon, Kino and Milestone have the right to sell the films that they wish, and not sell films that they believe are problematic. This conversation could just as well be about the Netflix film 365 Days (2020) which Netflix felt was worth carrying despite its violent sexual story.

Thoughtful and very reasonable perspective.

The current book burning, desecration, cancel culture, etc. is not about protecting people from "hateful content" or anything lofty and holy like that. Anyone can produce a list of hateful things that isn't getting banned, desecrated or burned. So there's no need to waste your time and intellect on that discussion.

What this is, is an attempt at a communist revolution. I know, sounds crazy. But that's what it is unfortunately.

In order to be successful it has to remove some obstacles. The first is to denigrate the host -- which is America. They're attempting to shame Americans, Western culture and YOU into giving up western, capitalist ideals. So this is the shaming and fear process. Again, it's not about BoaN -- it's about YOU and shaming YOU.

Ever wonder what the connection was between police brutality and kneeling for the flag and the national anthem? In case you weren't asking that question, that's ok -- it's all happening so fast. It's the link to the next phase of the communist revolution: shame America first, then defund its police. It's quite a leap, but it worked.

Defunding cops has nothing to do with injustice or righting wrongs -- as evidenced by all the violent crimes that get zero attention, or the fact that removing police would actually HURT a neighborhood. So don't waste your time and intellect on that one either. Another decoy.

The reason for defunding police is to simply get them out of the way so they can challenge YOU directly. Physically. Physically challenge YOU. Police are the largest obstacle between them and YOURSELF. Even though decent people greatly outnumber these communist revolutionaries, are YOU prepared for the next phase, if we get there?

I don't think we will, but I don't have a crystal ball either. I'm watching this unfold like you. However, I do know that communist revolutionaries can lie dormant -- FOR YEARS. Like many viruses, they can be re-activated in 5, 10 or 20 years when they think they have a better chance. They'll use the downtime to convert more kids. If they can't convince YOU to give up, maybe they can convince your kids or grandkids.


Sorry to be so bleak. But these little baby-steps -- destroying statues, movie banning, kneeling, defunding police -- do have a larger purpose and it's not a good one. And I can prove it. How? Easy.... most public forums will be feared into banning or shamming these very thoughts. Think about it -- what are THEY afraid of?

Please excuse my virtual face palm here, but this kind of fanciful thinking is more in keeping with Qanon conspiracy theories than real world observation. Here's a fact (feel free to check it, ...it's all I have to say on the subject of Marxism): As a political theory, communism died decades ago, it's been in rigor longer if you look at Karl Marx's actual philosophy. Power ...and by extension, access to vast amounts of wealth... always ends up in the hands of a few regardless of the system supporting it. That is the reality. It's how capital is regulated to the benefit or detriment of society that determines the long term health of a political system.

If we can get back to the original topic, BoaN is only the symptom of a greater problem that's been hiding just below the surface in our democracy that has threatened our national identity as a free society since it's founding. Griffith's masterpiece is an ill conceived revisionist history of the South that contributed to setting back the aspirational goal of racial equality for nearly a century, fueling bigotry and attitudes of white entitlement that still permeate America. The embracing of confederate statues and flags was just an outgrowth of this backwards trend to make the old south great again.

There's no way to candy-coat this message, ...lynchings, beatings and other forms of cruelty and intimidation undoubtably occurred as a result of BoaN's appeal to white identity and hate. Do the research, it isn't pretty. I'm not saying that the bigotry didn't exist prior to the film's success, but it was a major dogwhistle of it's time. BoaN reignited interest in the KKK which had largely dwindled into insignificance by the turn of the 20th century.

So, asked rhetorically if I have a problem with America's biggest distributor pulling BoaN because it doesn't reflect their values, my answer would be a resounding NO. The same holds for my losing sleep over the removal of statues of southern insurrectionists and the confederate flag from sporting events. Furthermore, I don't have a problem with shaming folks who plant the seeds of paranoia or deign to use bumper-sticker slogans like "cancel-culture" to denigrate those seeking a more reasonable, equitable and compassionate middle ground.

Films and books aren't being burned. If you want to see something or read it, it's available. In fact, more now than in any earlier time in our history. That said, given the degree of misinformation we're inundated with from supposedly knowledgable anonymous sources on a regular basis ...some of which is inarguably dangerous... perhaps more discretionary warnings and age regulation is entirely reasonable in this day and age.

[boblipton]

I'm not terribly upset either, r.cat, mostly because I don't have a blu-ray player. I think there is a difference between someone who has refused to carry it for some time, like Dennis, and people who climb upon the bandwagon once it picks up speed.

To strain the metaphor, there comes a time when protest becomes terror. As Bruce notes, you can back the blue and feel the police get out of hand, or that Black Lives Matter, but condemn looting. The question to me is where are the boundaries? At what point does the bandwagon become Juggernaut, and protests the Terror? I'm a little too well-versed in history not to fear that.

Bob

[Zool]

This thread won't be locked as long as there is no name-calling and it sticks to the topic of race-relations and film.

And lets remember that it is still possible to "Back the Blue" but condemn excessive use of force and racial profiling by some police officers. It is possible to support "Black Lives Matter" and still condemn looting and violent protesters.

There also isn't any official list of what is racially offensive and what is not. Amazon, Kino and Milestone have the right to sell the films that they wish, and not sell films that they believe are problematic. This conversation could just as well be about the Netflix film 365 Days (2020) which Netflix felt was worth carrying despite its violent sexual story.

Unfortunately, most Americans do not share your perspective. You some how CAN'T be for one thing if you're for the other. It's sickening. Everything is either this or that, red or blue, left or right, black or white. I don't know if the inability to see that two things can be true at the same time is human nature or not. People can't agree to disagree anymore. Too much venom in the world.

[Zool]

This thread won't be locked as long as there is no name-calling and it sticks to the topic of race-relations and film.

And lets remember that it is still possible to "Back the Blue" but condemn excessive use of force and racial profiling by some police officers. It is possible to support "Black Lives Matter" and still condemn looting and violent protesters.

There also isn't any official list of what is racially offensive and what is not. Amazon, Kino and Milestone have the right to sell the films that they wish, and not sell films that they believe are problematic. This conversation could just as well be about the Netflix film 365 Days (2020) which Netflix felt was worth carrying despite its violent sexual story.

Thoughtful and very reasonable perspective.

The current book burning, desecration, cancel culture, etc. is not about protecting people from "hateful content" or anything lofty and holy like that. Anyone can produce a list of hateful things that isn't getting banned, desecrated or burned. So there's no need to waste your time and intellect on that discussion.

What this is, is an attempt at a communist revolution. I know, sounds crazy. But that's what it is unfortunately.

In order to be successful it has to remove some obstacles. The first is to denigrate the host -- which is America. They're attempting to shame Americans, Western culture and YOU into giving up western, capitalist ideals. So this is the shaming and fear process. Again, it's not about BoaN -- it's about YOU and shaming YOU.

Ever wonder what the connection was between police brutality and kneeling for the flag and the national anthem? In case you weren't asking that question, that's ok -- it's all happening so fast. It's the link to the next phase of the communist revolution: shame America first, then defund its police. It's quite a leap, but it worked.

Defunding cops has nothing to do with injustice or righting wrongs -- as evidenced by all the violent crimes that get zero attention, or the fact that removing police would actually HURT a neighborhood. So don't waste your time and intellect on that one either. Another decoy.

The reason for defunding police is to simply get them out of the way so they can challenge YOU directly. Physically. Physically challenge YOU. Police are the largest obstacle between them and YOURSELF. Even though decent people greatly outnumber these communist revolutionaries, are YOU prepared for the next phase, if we get there?

I don't think we will, but I don't have a crystal ball either. I'm watching this unfold like you. However, I do know that communist revolutionaries can lie dormant -- FOR YEARS. Like many viruses, they can be re-activated in 5, 10 or 20 years when they think they have a better chance. They'll use the downtime to convert more kids. If they can't convince YOU to give up, maybe they can convince your kids or grandkids.


Sorry to be so bleak. But these little baby-steps -- destroying statues, movie banning, kneeling, defunding police -- do have a larger purpose and it's not a good one. And I can prove it. How? Easy.... most public forums will be feared into banning or shamming these very thoughts. Think about it -- what are THEY afraid of?

Please excuse my virtual face palm here, but this kind of fanciful thinking is more in keeping with Qanon conspiracy theories than real world observation. Here's a fact (feel free to check it, ...it's all I have to say on the subject of Marxism): As a political theory, communism died decades ago, it's been in rigor longer if you look at Karl Marx's actual philosophy. Power ...and by extension, access to vast amounts of wealth... always ends up in the hands of a few regardless of the system supporting it. That is the reality. It's how capital is regulated to the benefit or detriment of society that determines the long term health of a political system.

If we can get back to the original topic, BoaN is only the symptom of a greater problem that's been hiding just below the surface in our democracy that has threatened our national identity as a free society since it's founding. Griffith's masterpiece is an ill conceived revisionist history of the South that contributed to setting back the aspirational goal of racial equality for nearly a century, fueling bigotry and attitudes of white entitlement that still permeate America. The embracing of confederate statues and flags was just an outgrowth of this backwards trend to make the old south great again.

There's no way to candy-coat this message, ...lynchings, beatings and other forms of cruelty and intimidation undoubtably occurred as a result of BoaN's appeal to white identity and hate. Do the research, it isn't pretty. I'm not saying that the bigotry didn't exist prior to the film's success, but it was a major dogwhistle of it's time. BoaN reignited interest in the KKK which had largely dwindled into insignificance by the turn of the 20th century.

So, asked rhetorically if I have a problem with America's biggest distributor pulling BoaN because it doesn't reflect their values, my answer would be a resounding NO. The same holds for my losing sleep over the removal of statues of southern insurrectionists and the confederate flag from sporting events. Furthermore, I don't have a problem with shaming folks who plant the seeds of paranoia or deign to use bumper-sticker slogans like "cancel-culture" to denigrate those seeking a more reasonable, equitable and compassionate middle ground.

Films and books aren't being burned. If you want to see something or read it, it's available. In fact, more now than in any earlier time in our history. That said, given the degree of misinformation we're inundated with from supposedly knowledgable anonymous sources on a regular basis ...some of which is inarguably dangerous... perhaps more discretionary warnings and age regulation is entirely reasonable in this day and age.

Theories and ideas never die. There's always some idiot around to believe in them and get others on their side. I realized that years ago when I was still pretty young.

Not saying not to do it, but If people think the mere act of getting rid of old, "racists" songs and movies and things is going to somehow stop racism, or make the KKK, Neo Nazi's, Aryan Brotherhood, etc. disappear, or fill their head with less evil ideas, they're living in Fantasy Land. As Trump would say, "SAD!"

[Red Bartlett]

I don't have a problem with shaming folks who plant the seeds of paranoia or deign to use bumper-sticker slogans like "cancel-culture" to denigrate those seeking a more reasonable, equitable and compassionate middle ground.

I appreciate your post R. Cat -- but honestly, I don't have the ability to rate your compassion. I'm only concerned with how a desire for "a more reasonable, equitable and compassionate middle ground" is being co-opted to accomplish the sinister agenda of others.

I don't care to discuss the self-righteous political propaganda of these Puritan radicals today, anymore than I care to discuss all the self-righteous Puritan racist ideology of 1915 -- a pitch that was so eloquently displayed in the film Birth of a Nation.

That's why this film is relevant. In other words, history repeats itself and most historians are boring.

[goldenband]

The racially inflammatory content is such a small part of the overall film that focuses much more on romance, Lincoln, and the Civil War.

My wife and I watched Birth of a Nation for the first time recently (the 2011 Kino version, I believe). Both of us agreed that, if the film had stopped after the first half, it'd have been an impressive historical drama with a few very unfortunate scenes.

But that second half was pretty jaw-dropping, even to jaded souls like ours (we're hardly the sort to run screaming with outrage at the drop of a hat). The KKK advocacy and "racially inflammatory content" isn't a small part of the second half, it's the absolute and unquestionable crux of it. I don't see how it's possible to claim otherwise, at least not with goodwill and honesty. The film goes to great lengths to depict black people as fundamentally contemptible and unsuited for anything but a servile, subservient role.

It is, by far, the most overtly, self-consciously, and unapologetically racist movie I've ever seen. And I've seen plenty from the era (and beyond), including Rastus films, movies with blackface routines, etc. Birth of a Nation exceeded any of those by an order of magnitude.

(I assume Der ewige Jude would give it a run for its money, but I haven't seen that yet, and it's not a fair fight since it includes real-life scenes of people being victimized. Jud Süß is probably a better example, but I haven't seen that one either.)

It's a pity the thing is so well-made otherwise. Few films of its length, silent or talkie, move at such a good clip -- we were both surprised that it didn't drag at all. The cinematography and battle choreography are often astonishingly good. And yet, all these resources were put toward such a reprehensible goal.

Anyway, the film's public domain in the US, so it'll never be in danger of being lost. Project Gutenberg has tons of books that espouse views similar to those in Birth of a Nation, and rightfully so -- the arguments in those books should be refuted, not treated as something powerful that needs to be hidden.

But I'd never dream of having a class watch more than a short, carefully-curated excerpt of Birth of a Nation -- its contempt for black people, and advocacy for their disenfranchisement, is just too relentless. Its force as propaganda isn't zero, either: the movie is too well-made, too good at pushing buttons, to be sure that no one in the viewing audience will be swayed by it, even unconsciously.

Unlike Triumph of the Will, which loses much of its force because of the language barrier (among other things), it's easy to imagine that Birth of a Nation could speak to certain people in the United States and feel like truth to them. And it's credited with spurring the revival of the KKK, so we have concrete evidence of the harm it can do -- this isn't some recondite, academic discussion about "art as violence".

[oldposterho]

(I assume Der ewige Jude would give it a run for its money, but I haven't seen that yet, and it's not a fair fight since it includes real-life scenes of people being victimized. Jud Süß is probably a better example, but I haven't seen that one either.)

It's a pity the thing is so well-made otherwise. Few films of its length, silent or talkie, move at such a good clip -- we were both surprised that it didn't drag at all. The cinematography and battle choreography are often astonishingly good. And yet, all these resources were put toward such a reprehensible goal.

Der ewige Jude is at least on a par with BoaN, Jude Suss, while contemptible, isn't even close.

Your second point is spot on. We wouldn't even be having this conversation if BoaN weren't such exceptional filmmaking. That's the problem.

These threads make me sad, I end up losing respect for my fellow cinephiles. Sometimes ignorance is truly bliss.

[Mike Gebert]

Honest to Gawd, here's what Amazon just tried to sell me—The Politically Incorrect Collection:



If you keep scrolling right, you can also get The Jolson Story.

[boblipton]

You're a very bad person, Mike.

Bob

[LillianDianaGish]

I am avoiding seeing "Birth Of A Nation" for all the reasons everyone has said above. It's good to have the option to see the movie, but let it remain an option, don't hide it away as the mystique makes it more attractive to would-be racists. Historically the movie is very important.

Retrospectively it would have been a lot better for Griffith's image had "Intolerance" kind of been his crowning masterpiece and the one to kick-start Hollywood, not this "Birth Of A Nation".

For society we should just accept these things happened, and avoid allowing it to happen again. I am sure Griffith would have apologised and explained his point of view had he lived long enough for people to have questioned his reasoning behind the movie.

Simplest thing to do would be - slap some warning stickers on the case, include some anti racism leaflet inside the case with the disc and booklet, and put warnings noting that the company publishing the disc does not condone the portrayal of specific characters to be acceptable. And heck even donate a slight part of the profit of the sales to a charity that deals with racial issues.

[Battra92]

Honest to Gawd, here's what Amazon just tried to sell me—The Politically Incorrect Collection:



If you keep scrolling right, you can also get The Jolson Story.

Is there something wrong with Kindergarten Cop now? (Honestly asking as I've never seen it.)

[silentfilm]

In Portland, Oregon, Kindergarten Cop is no longer acceptable for children now. I'll agree that it was probably a poor choice to lead off their summer outdoor film series (it was apparently filmed in the area), but cancelling it completely seems a bit much.

[Histogram]

Maybe it's a tumor.

[goldenband]

(I assume Der ewige Jude would give it a run for its money, but I haven't seen that yet, and it's not a fair fight since it includes real-life scenes of people being victimized. Jud Süß is probably a better example, but I haven't seen that one either.)

Der ewige Jude is at least on a par with BoaN, Jude Suss, while contemptible, isn't even close.

Just to make sure we're on the same page, we're comparing them on the basis of overt reprehensibility, right? If so, it's sort of a relief that Jude Suss isn't in the same league of awfulness.

(I assume neither of those is remotely as well-made as Birth of a Nation. Frankly when I saw Triumph of the Will I wasn't much impressed by Riefenstahl's vaunted technical skill, but that was years ago and in a sub-par print.)

I am avoiding seeing "Birth Of A Nation" for all the reasons everyone has said above.

I'm actually glad I saw it, because now I know firsthand what it's like rather than relying on third-party accounts. I didn't find it at all traumatizing to watch -- few films are, except documentaries showing real-life horrors. (I'm not sure I have it in me to watch Der ewige Jude, knowing the horrible fate awaiting the people shown; reading Holocaust testimonials is one thing, but seeing the footage is something else.)

That said I'd never put any third party in the position of being obliged to watch Birth of a Nation. In other words, I'm fine with it being excluded from film studies classes except in brief excerpts, and certainly fine with abandoning the idea that it should be required viewing for anyone (in the formal sense of the word "required"). The closing 5 minutes would probably be the hardest to watch for a Lillian Gish fan, since she's featured front-and-center in a triumphal KKK march, and that's probably not something you want to see.

I like the idea of donating part of the proceeds of DVD sales and streaming service royalties (if Birth of a Nation generates those) to charity. The rub is, as always, what charity, but the UNCF would be a fairly non-controversial option.

[Battra92]

In Portland, Oregon, Kindergarten Cop is no longer acceptable for children now. I'll agree that it was probably a poor choice to lead off their summer outdoor film series (it was apparently filmed in the area), but cancelling it completely seems a bit much.

The film is rated PG-13. I wouldn't let my 4 year old watch it. I'd have to watch it before showing it to a 10 year old but based on the complaints of the woman who spearheaded this complaint I can't say I agree with her.

Now, the series organizers have tuned in to the outrage, changing the opening film from Kindergarten Cop to the documentary John Lewis: Good Trouble, in honor of the late congressman.

I'm sure that will sure bring down the house ...

[Spiny Norman]

What this is, is an attempt at a communist revolution. I know, sounds crazy. But that's what it is unfortunately.

They're attempting to shame Americans, Western culture and YOU into giving up western, capitalist ideals.

It's the link to the next phase of the communist revolution: shame America first, then defund its police.

The reason for defunding police is to simply get them out of the way so they can challenge YOU directly. Physically. Physically challenge YOU. Police are the largest obstacle between them and YOURSELF. Even though decent people greatly outnumber these communist revolutionaries, are YOU prepared for the next phase, if we get there?

I do know that communist revolutionaries can lie dormant -- FOR YEARS. Like many viruses, they can be re-activated in 5, 10 or 20 years when they think they have a better chance. They'll use the downtime to convert more kids. If they can't convince YOU to give up, maybe they can convince your kids or grandkids.

To be honest, this bears a superficial similarity with a monty python sketch. Are you an ayn rand reader, by any chance?

[William D. Ferry]

Maybe it's a tumor.

It's NOT a toomah!!

[oldposterho]

Just to make sure we're on the same page, we're comparing them on the basis of overt reprehensibility, right? If so, it's sort of a relief that Jude Suss isn't in the same league of awfulness.

(I assume neither of those is remotely as well-made as Birth of a Nation. Frankly when I saw Triumph of the Will I wasn't much impressed by Riefenstahl's vaunted technical skill, but that was years ago and in a sub-par print.)

Overtly reprehensible, yes. Suss actually is a well made film and it's antisemitism is appalling, yet, and I can't believe I'm typing this (future data miners please take this in the proper context), it's not as blatant as BoaN in its racism. That's part of *it's* problem too.

If you want to see great Leni Riefenstahl direction watch any of the Fanck mountain films. She stole it all from him.

[LillianDianaGish]

(I assume Der ewige Jude would give it a run for its money, but I haven't seen that yet, and it's not a fair fight since it includes real-life scenes of people being victimized. Jud Süß is probably a better example, but I haven't seen that one either.)

Der ewige Jude is at least on a par with BoaN, Jude Suss, while contemptible, isn't even close.

Just to make sure we're on the same page, we're comparing them on the basis of overt reprehensibility, right? If so, it's sort of a relief that Jude Suss isn't in the same league of awfulness.

(I assume neither of those is remotely as well-made as Birth of a Nation. Frankly when I saw Triumph of the Will I wasn't much impressed by Riefenstahl's vaunted technical skill, but that was years ago and in a sub-par print.)

I am avoiding seeing "Birth Of A Nation" for all the reasons everyone has said above.

I'm actually glad I saw it, because now I know firsthand what it's like rather than relying on third-party accounts. I didn't find it at all traumatizing to watch -- few films are, except documentaries showing real-life horrors. (I'm not sure I have it in me to watch Der ewige Jude, knowing the horrible fate awaiting the people shown; reading Holocaust testimonials is one thing, but seeing the footage is something else.)

That said I'd never put any third party in the position of being obliged to watch Birth of a Nation. In other words, I'm fine with it being excluded from film studies classes except in brief excerpts, and certainly fine with abandoning the idea that it should be required viewing for anyone (in the formal sense of the word "required"). The closing 5 minutes would probably be the hardest to watch for a Lillian Gish fan, since she's featured front-and-center in a triumphal KKK march, and that's probably not something you want to see.

I like the idea of donating part of the proceeds of DVD sales and streaming service royalties (if Birth of a Nation generates those) to charity. The rub is, as always, what charity, but the UNCF would be a fairly non-controversial option.

Totally agree with everything you say. I know there's some rape stuff in the movie too, everything vile was pretty much covered. Honestly UNCF would be the best option, as most charities have some shady shit happening.

I am always surprised not a single actor stopped and ask Mr Griffith if this was "ok" to film, it's pretty shocking. I am going to assume they all just kept quiet and went along with his crazy idea.

[Mike Gebert]

If one is interested in silent film, one probably ought to see Birth of a Nation once, to know what the fuss is about. If you want to watch Griffith for pleasure, watch Intolerance.

That said, I incline to the sentiment (not original to me) that if nobody sees BOAN, that just puts it in the same boat as every other teens silent, and you could certainly be happy instead just seeing, oh, The Cheat or Alias Jimmy Valentine or The Poor Little Rich Girl or The Italian or... Likewise, I find the "Griffith Must Be Shunned" crowd a bit much, but if it brings more attention to Tourneur or Weber or both DeMilles or whomever, again, okay by me.

I doubt there are riches from releasing it now that need donating anywhere.

Der Ewige Jude is a hack compilation documentary and doesn't really even belong in this discussion of well-made but problematic (to say the least) dramatic films. If you want to understand Nazi cinema, the documentary Hitler's Hollywood gives good context for the films made during that time in Germany, and the degree to which they variously reflected or evaded the propaganda intentions of the regime, and the deeper undercurrents of German culture at that time.

[IA]

I can’t say I’m surprised. Disappointed, yes, but not surprised. We’re entering a “see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil” phase of public discourse...It isn’t surprising that in Trump’s America the need to be perceived as doing good has replaced the need to actually make people’s lives better.

Indeed. Corporate cowardice dictates covering the corporate posterior through an empty gesture. Fascists and MAGA creeps aren't going to watch a silent film from 1915 to get their rocks off, and the school of history represented by BOAN is thoroughly discredited. The film has reached the point of being least capable of doing harm, and that's when Amazon so bravely decided to ban it. The decision's value is purely cosmetic. All it will do is make it harder for scholars and layfolk interested in film history to obtain a copy (I bought the BFI Blu-Ray--much better than Kino's--from Amazon.co.uk but its listing has disappeared too). As someone already pointed out, Amazon continues to sell Mein Kampf, so if its purpose is to weed out hateful racist works, it's hardly being consistent. And should Amazon argue that Mein Kampf has historical value, absolutely the same goes for BOAN.

[Ed Lachmann]

Guess that Triumph of the Will, Der Ewige Jude and Jud Suss are low on the list of "unacceptable" as they are still available on Amazon. This seems ironic as it was BLM who defaced and tried to burn down a synagogue in L.A.'s Fairfax District after smashing windows, robbing and destroying many Jewish owned businesses along the avenue and even stopping to deface and topple gravestones in a nearby Jewish cemetery. Kristallnacht seems in fashion again, just extended. Ask the parishioners who watched Jesus, Mary and a saint who cared for leprosy stricken Native Americans toppled just weeks ago by the mob. But, God forbid we allow anyone to learn from history, just not history deemed "acceptable" by the mob. Oops, I'm probably cancelled now.

[boblipton]

When I was a kid, I didn't hit my friends on the head with a ball peen hammer because I saw the Three Stooges do it. As a teenager I didn't murder people because of Halloween and Texas Chainsaw Massacre. I'm grown up now and I can watch Triumph of the Will without becoming a Nazi. I was raised to think critically, and I exercise that skill as much as I can. Because of this, evil ideas don't spur me to believe evil things , or commit evil acts.

Too many people today have been raised without those skills.

SNIP

I disagree. The claim is that other people lack those skills, or people are uncomfortable because these things exist. Like many of the things that are outlawed because other people lack the ability to do something in a responsible manner. People’ feeling uncomfortable about certain things, I certainly understand. We all feel uncomfortable about some things, some of them for good reasons, some just neurotic. That is one of the reasons why, as a Jew, I avoid movies about the Holocaust. I don’t object to other people’s’ seeing movies about it; I just get angry when they come away from, say, Shoah, and feeling it necessary to tell me that people did these terrible things.

Part of being an adult and free is giving other people The right to look at and think and say things. Good luck convincing a true believer of that.

Bob

[35MM]

I like the idea of donating part of the proceeds of DVD sales and streaming service royalties (if Birth of a Nation generates those) to charity. The rub is, as always, what charity, but the UNCF would be a fairly non-controversial option.

Would the UNCF even accept it? Might it be considered counter-productive and insulting to donate such funds or even hypocritical of them to accept it?

[boblipton]

Pecunia non olet.

Bob

[milefilms]

Would the UNCF even accept it? Might it be considered counter-productive and insulting to donate such funds or even hypocritical of them to accept it?

Yes, I think the UNCF would find it problematic. For those who read our monthly newsletters, they know that for the last four years, we (Milestone) give $1 of every direct sale to a charity -- we choose a new one every year. This year is HIAS. https://www.hias.org/

And for those who think the radical left has a plot going? -- I'm part of that definition (health care for all, free college education, conservation, social justice, fair immigration and assault gun control laws -- all those horrifying ideas) and I have not heard of one yet. My next-door-neighbor in the Bronx when we were living there, was an FBI Special Agent. He would come by our apartment to watch The X-Files. He would die of laughter at all the FBI conspiracy plots because "we can't even decide what to have for lunch." (And yes, you should have seen his boss's face when he came into our apartment with a giant I AM CUBA poster hanging up! Thankfully, he was a Scorsese fan...) Life is really like that and y'all should all just relax about the commie takeover theories. We definitely don't want to be hiding under your beds. It's uncomfortable down there.

[greta de groat]

I used to be among those who thought BOAN should be required viewing for Americans--i thought people would be shocked to see that this level of hateful discourse was considered in the realm of normal by wide swaths of the population (apparently as well by the cast and crew--I've only ever heard of Karl Brown saying that he pushed back in any way at the time, and most never admitted anything was wrong with it). It was its acceptance for decades that to me was the most shocking thing about it.

I was too naive to realize that it was still considered normal by many people, even those who don't run around in sheets and pointy hats.

greta