Greenbriar Picture Show blog on THE GOLD RUSH screenings
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silentfilm
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Bruce,
This is very confusing to say the least. It seems to suggest that the true 1925 simply does not exist. Only a Hybrid simulation that Raymond Rohauer slapped together back in the 50's? I had no idea that even those rare and precious scenes, and bits and pieces of scenes, omitted entirely from the 1942 re-issue, were actually outtakes as well? Not the true footage Chaplin released to Theaters in 1925? That's what it seems to infer here? Am I wrong? In any event, I still do not understand why the Chaplin Heir's are so disgustingly stubborn that they would not want the film restored to as close to full-length as possible. Their attitude makes zero sense. 
This is very confusing to say the least. It seems to suggest that the true 1925 simply does not exist. Only a Hybrid simulation that Raymond Rohauer slapped together back in the 50's? I had no idea that even those rare and precious scenes, and bits and pieces of scenes, omitted entirely from the 1942 re-issue, were actually outtakes as well? Not the true footage Chaplin released to Theaters in 1925? That's what it seems to infer here? Am I wrong? In any event, I still do not understand why the Chaplin Heir's are so disgustingly stubborn that they would not want the film restored to as close to full-length as possible. Their attitude makes zero sense. So, am I really to understand that nutty old Rohauer cobbled together a version of THE GOLD RUSH entirely from outtakes, and that the 1925 version distributed by Killiam & Blackhawk that we're all familiar with is derived from this print? And, likewise the Brownlow/Gill restoration, which is, from what I remember, pretty identical to them takewise? Or was the Killiam/Blackhawk/Brownlow/Gill version from different elements? I know there's gotta be someone on this board with the skinny...When home video later came to the fore, calls went out for a proper restoration of The Gold Rush. Kevin Brownlow and David Gill took on the project on behalf of Chaplin’s estate. Gill wrote a terrific article about complications of that for Griffithiana (#54 --- October 1995), a film journal near impossible to find in back issues (too bad … I’m missing some). One notable thing he mentioned was a 35mm print they’d found of The Gold Rush that originated with a man called Bob Fischer who operated from Texas, and was some kind of an associate of (Raymond) Rohauer’s. That last part intrigued me as I assume this is defendant Robert B. Fischer from the 1959 controversies. What I hadn’t realized before was Rohauer’s behind-the-scenes involvement with International/ Film Masterpieces. Turns out Rohauer acquired his source material for the 1925 Gold Rush when he, according to David Gill, bought up all the film Chaplin slated for destruction after he was prevented from returning to the states in 1952. Rohauer had, in fact, assembled his Gold Rush from outtakes Chaplin discarded. This was the basis for prints that International/ Film Masterpieces distributed in 1959 and beyond.
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radiotelefonia
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Here we have yet another prime example of someone posting mere speculation on the internet and people regarding it as fact.
Chaplin's 1942 version (actually completed in 1941 but held back) is made from uncut takes off a second camera running a couple of feet to the right of the prime camera, the one which produced the negative used to make the 1925 print which was copied by Raymond Rohauer. The action matches.
Raymond Rohauer's version derives from the studio file print which he bought along with the Mutual outtakes and lots of other Chaplin material, including outtakes and SEA GULLS. from the salvage company that was supposed to destroy it all.
When Rohauer's associate Robert Fischer began distributing prints of the copyrighted films, their defense was that they had obtained them legitimately because the stuff had been sold to their vendor, the salvage company.
To fend off a lawsuit, Rohauer agreed to surrender everything back to Roy Export except THE GOLD RUSH, the Mutual outtakes, and a very small amount of other material that was overlooked. A large truckload of this priceless film was delivered up and duly destroyed at the direction of Rachel Ford without a second thought given to its cultural value.
I heard this story from Raymond Rohauer with my own ears, and it agreed with the file I read in the Chaplin archives in 1992 at the time I was producing the laserdisc editions of the films.
Later on Rohauer made the mistake of licensing his GOLD RUSH to Atlas Films in Germany, where the film was still protected by a separate copyright secured in 1925 under the Berne Convention. Roy Export pounced on it, and that was the end of that ...
As to the reconstruction and provenance of THE GOLD RUSH, it's fully disclosed in an article David Gill wrote for "Griffithiana." I have the last reel only of an original silent version and it lines up with the Rohauer version, which certainly is NOT put together from outtakes!
Of course the silent version (Gill & Brownlow reconstruction) is on the MK2 and Warner Bros. DVD. Warner's rights expired December 31st, so if you don't have it, get it before it disappears. Eventually there will be new editions from Criterion.
The one film Raymond did put together from outtakes is THE BOND.
David Shepard
Chaplin's 1942 version (actually completed in 1941 but held back) is made from uncut takes off a second camera running a couple of feet to the right of the prime camera, the one which produced the negative used to make the 1925 print which was copied by Raymond Rohauer. The action matches.
Raymond Rohauer's version derives from the studio file print which he bought along with the Mutual outtakes and lots of other Chaplin material, including outtakes and SEA GULLS. from the salvage company that was supposed to destroy it all.
When Rohauer's associate Robert Fischer began distributing prints of the copyrighted films, their defense was that they had obtained them legitimately because the stuff had been sold to their vendor, the salvage company.
To fend off a lawsuit, Rohauer agreed to surrender everything back to Roy Export except THE GOLD RUSH, the Mutual outtakes, and a very small amount of other material that was overlooked. A large truckload of this priceless film was delivered up and duly destroyed at the direction of Rachel Ford without a second thought given to its cultural value.
I heard this story from Raymond Rohauer with my own ears, and it agreed with the file I read in the Chaplin archives in 1992 at the time I was producing the laserdisc editions of the films.
Later on Rohauer made the mistake of licensing his GOLD RUSH to Atlas Films in Germany, where the film was still protected by a separate copyright secured in 1925 under the Berne Convention. Roy Export pounced on it, and that was the end of that ...
As to the reconstruction and provenance of THE GOLD RUSH, it's fully disclosed in an article David Gill wrote for "Griffithiana." I have the last reel only of an original silent version and it lines up with the Rohauer version, which certainly is NOT put together from outtakes!
Of course the silent version (Gill & Brownlow reconstruction) is on the MK2 and Warner Bros. DVD. Warner's rights expired December 31st, so if you don't have it, get it before it disappears. Eventually there will be new editions from Criterion.
The one film Raymond did put together from outtakes is THE BOND.
David Shepard
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John McElwee
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In reply to the previous comment regarding my having posted "mere speculation" about "The Gold Rush," I would mention that reference to Raymond Rohaeur's assembling his version from outtakes derives from the following paragraph in David Gill's excellent "Griffithiana" article:
"Rohauer had proudly told us he had acquired the outtakes from "The Gold Rush" when he bought up all the film that Chaplin had given instructions to be destroyed when he was prevented from returning to the States in 1952. Rohauer told us he had reconstructed the film from these outtakes, and exploiting the fact that the copyright had lapsed in the states, he had released it there in the sixties."
Perhaps I should have taken into account possibilities that what Raymond Rohauer told David Gill was untrue. Now, thanks to Mr. Shepard's information, we know that was indeed the case.
"Rohauer had proudly told us he had acquired the outtakes from "The Gold Rush" when he bought up all the film that Chaplin had given instructions to be destroyed when he was prevented from returning to the States in 1952. Rohauer told us he had reconstructed the film from these outtakes, and exploiting the fact that the copyright had lapsed in the states, he had released it there in the sixties."
Perhaps I should have taken into account possibilities that what Raymond Rohauer told David Gill was untrue. Now, thanks to Mr. Shepard's information, we know that was indeed the case.
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Richard M Roberts
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Ah, but it was worth it to make both Waveyboy and Gagman gag for awhile so that the screaming voices in their heads were telling them they could never watch the silent GOLD RUSH again because it was not the "true and complete" original version, something nearly impossible to see with so many Chaplin films.John McElwee wrote:In reply to the previous comment regarding my having posted "mere speculation" about "The Gold Rush," I would mention that reference to Raymond Rohaeur's assembling his version from outtakes derives from the following paragraph in David Gill's excellent "Griffithiana" article:
"Rohauer had proudly told us he had acquired the outtakes from "The Gold Rush" when he bought up all the film that Chaplin had given instructions to be destroyed when he was prevented from returning to the States in 1952. Rohauer told us he had reconstructed the film from these outtakes, and exploiting the fact that the copyright had lapsed in the states, he had released it there in the sixties."
Perhaps I should have taken into account possibilities that what Raymond Rohauer told David Gill was untrue. Now, thanks to Mr. Shepard's information, we know that was indeed the case.
But just to keep them twitching, it's still nice to remind them that there are so many variables in the various versions of the 1925 GOLD RUSH prints circulating that one can find all sorts of differences to keep their heads spinning to find a "definitive" version.
RICHARD M ROBERTS
Sorry Dick, I didn't accept this as fact, that's why I asked (and even if it were true, I'd rather watch the silent outtakes than listen to Charlie's film-destroying narration). But I know you've got a rep to protect -- we wouldn't want any nasty rumors swirling around that you've lost your edge with the greenhorns who haven't paid their dues and thus haven't earned the right to be condescending.Richard M Roberts wrote:Ah, but it was worth it to make both Waveyboy and Gagman gag for awhile so that the screaming voices in their heads were telling them they could never watch the silent GOLD RUSH again because it was not the "true and complete" original version, something nearly impossible to see with so many Chaplin films.
But just to keep them twitching, it's still nice to remind them that there are so many variables in the various versions of the 1925 GOLD RUSH prints circulating that one can find all sorts of differences to keep their heads spinning to find a "definitive" version.
RICHARD M ROBERTS
Last edited by WaverBoy on Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I had a feeling it wasn't true. Thanks for setting the record straight, and for the heads up on the WB DVD going out-of-print for those who don't have it. Oh yeah, and for restoring and releasing tons of silent film goodies for us. The new Melies disc and Miss Mend are next on my list.DShepFilm wrote:Here we have yet another prime example of someone posting mere speculation on the internet and people regarding it as fact.
Chaplin's 1942 version (actually completed in 1941 but held back) is made from uncut takes off a second camera running a couple of feet to the right of the prime camera, the one which produced the negative used to make the 1925 print which was copied by Raymond Rohauer. The action matches.
Raymond Rohauer's version derives from the studio file print which he bought along with the Mutual outtakes and lots of other Chaplin material, including outtakes and SEA GULLS. from the salvage company that was supposed to destroy it all.
When Rohauer's associate Robert Fischer began distributing prints of the copyrighted films, their defense was that they had obtained them legitimately because the stuff had been sold to their vendor, the salvage company.
To fend off a lawsuit, Rohauer agreed to surrender everything back to Roy Export except THE GOLD RUSH, the Mutual outtakes, and a very small amount of other material that was overlooked. A large truckload of this priceless film was delivered up and duly destroyed at the direction of Rachel Ford without a second thought given to its cultural value.
I heard this story from Raymond Rohauer with my own ears, and it agreed with the file I read in the Chaplin archives in 1992 at the time I was producing the laserdisc editions of the films.
Later on Rohauer made the mistake of licensing his GOLD RUSH to Atlas Films in Germany, where the film was still protected by a separate copyright secured in 1925 under the Berne Convention. Roy Export pounced on it, and that was the end of that ...
As to the reconstruction and provenance of THE GOLD RUSH, it's fully disclosed in an article David Gill wrote for "Griffithiana." I have the last reel only of an original silent version and it lines up with the Rohauer version, which certainly is NOT put together from outtakes!
Of course the silent version (Gill & Brownlow reconstruction) is on the MK2 and Warner Bros. DVD. Warner's rights expired December 31st, so if you don't have it, get it before it disappears. Eventually there will be new editions from Criterion.
The one film Raymond did put together from outtakes is THE BOND.
David Shepard
In 1956, Washington DC's Stanton Art Theater held Gold Rush over so long that they apparently bumped a scheduled personal appearance by Buster Keaton who was touring with The General. They added midnight shows to handle the demand.
With the popularity of classic films, it's a wonder that revival houses weren't popping up all over the country. No wonder distributors who specialized in theatrical reissues like Lippert, Astor and Film Classics lasted so long.
With the popularity of classic films, it's a wonder that revival houses weren't popping up all over the country. No wonder distributors who specialized in theatrical reissues like Lippert, Astor and Film Classics lasted so long.
Rob Farr
"If it's not comedy, I fall asleep." - Harpo Marx
"If it's not comedy, I fall asleep." - Harpo Marx
Ok I spent a healthy chunk of last night searching for the WHV Chaplins and could not find any that were not either way over priced or Korean imports.DShepFilm wrote: Of course the silent version (Gill & Brownlow reconstruction) is on the MK2 and Warner Bros. DVD. Warner's rights expired December 31st, so if you don't have it, get it before it disappears. Eventually there will be new editions from Criterion.
Any suggestions? Or should I just wait for the Criterions
Paul Killiam definitely copied his 1970 multi-tinted 16mm "Silent Years" release of THE GOLD RUSH from 35mm Rohauer material (without Rohauer's knowledge and with the help of a confederate.) A year or so later, when Killiam began to get requests for 35mm bookings, he tried to do it again (hoping to now dupe Rohauer's material from 35mm IN 35mm) however, unlike the previous time, he received a pretty beaten-up, damaged, incomplete 35mm to work with. Not to be thwarted, Killiam did three things - duped what he could from the mess he received, got a print of the '42 version and duped scenes from that -- and where he couldn't get what he needed from either - he went back and made 35mm blow-up from his own 16mm edition. So the Killiam 35mm black & white edition is a total patch-job when compared to his original 16mm tinted version. Some twenty years later, David Gill accessed the Killiam 35mm to get the whole 'Chilkhoot Pass' opening for his reconstruction for Association Chaplin - which he told me he could not locate elsewhere. Now compare Gill's reconstruction (available for viewing on the Warner M2K dvd) to the original Killiam tinted edition - and you'll find yet more differences (Gill was going for best picture quality AND completeness.)
Interestingly - NO version has ever seemed to have turned up with the original 1925 opening titles/credits or end title.
Having said all this - when comparing Killiam's original tinted edition with the '42 edition - there ARE some differences in actual takes/performance (Alice Artzt documented a number of them in her 1987 article on TGR in THE PERFECT VISION magazine - volume 1 - issue #3 --- start reading on page 107).
Interestingly - NO version has ever seemed to have turned up with the original 1925 opening titles/credits or end title.
Having said all this - when comparing Killiam's original tinted edition with the '42 edition - there ARE some differences in actual takes/performance (Alice Artzt documented a number of them in her 1987 article on TGR in THE PERFECT VISION magazine - volume 1 - issue #3 --- start reading on page 107).
tracy,
I haven't seen the Nostalgia Family Video VHS, but I doubt very much that it is the Killiam Shows/Blackhawk films version. The Blackhawk tape was the first version I saw at age 13 back in 1979. I liked the movie, but the tape was defective. Tinted so dark I could barely see the picture at times. So I sent it back. Bought the '42 Re-issue insteead. That tape boasted a much better print from Chaplin's own vaults, but I hated the fact that He had drastically altered the film. Removing in my mind allot of what made it so great in the first place. Even the original ending was snipped away. I couldn't believe had bad the cuts were. To this day I maintain the the '42 re-issue is not THE GOLD RUSH. A few years later I bought the Blackhawk version again, and it was now Black and White and looked allot different than it had when first released by Blackhawk in 78 or 79.
Everyone,
Let me toss another Monkey Wrench into the mix. Many years ago, say 1979-80 someone other than Blackhawk had a advertised as "Complete version" of THE GOLD RUSH on VHS, also Color Tinted. But this version contained a Full-Orchestra. Not a Bill Perry Piano score. Now I never specifically saw a copy of the tape, however, a few years later I had a cable channel called SPIN , which stood for Satelite Programing International Network or something like that. It's been a long time. Anyway, they used to run a version of THE GOLD RUSH with a Full Orchestral score. The print was frankly lousy, but the music, except for a couple of sequences, was much better than Chaplin's mostly compiled 1942 score had been.
While the version this cable channel aired had title-cards it was not really the 1925 film. Followed more the continuity of the sound re-issue. And missing the key deleted scenes. Does anyone know who did this score and when it was done. What company put out the VHS? I haven't seen it in over 25 years, and I can still hum several of the melodies. A great score. I've always hoped to find a complete recording of the score, but I have no idea who it was done by.
I haven't seen the Nostalgia Family Video VHS, but I doubt very much that it is the Killiam Shows/Blackhawk films version. The Blackhawk tape was the first version I saw at age 13 back in 1979. I liked the movie, but the tape was defective. Tinted so dark I could barely see the picture at times. So I sent it back. Bought the '42 Re-issue insteead. That tape boasted a much better print from Chaplin's own vaults, but I hated the fact that He had drastically altered the film. Removing in my mind allot of what made it so great in the first place. Even the original ending was snipped away. I couldn't believe had bad the cuts were. To this day I maintain the the '42 re-issue is not THE GOLD RUSH. A few years later I bought the Blackhawk version again, and it was now Black and White and looked allot different than it had when first released by Blackhawk in 78 or 79.
Everyone,
Let me toss another Monkey Wrench into the mix. Many years ago, say 1979-80 someone other than Blackhawk had a advertised as "Complete version" of THE GOLD RUSH on VHS, also Color Tinted. But this version contained a Full-Orchestra. Not a Bill Perry Piano score. Now I never specifically saw a copy of the tape, however, a few years later I had a cable channel called SPIN , which stood for Satelite Programing International Network or something like that. It's been a long time. Anyway, they used to run a version of THE GOLD RUSH with a Full Orchestral score. The print was frankly lousy, but the music, except for a couple of sequences, was much better than Chaplin's mostly compiled 1942 score had been.
While the version this cable channel aired had title-cards it was not really the 1925 film. Followed more the continuity of the sound re-issue. And missing the key deleted scenes. Does anyone know who did this score and when it was done. What company put out the VHS? I haven't seen it in over 25 years, and I can still hum several of the melodies. A great score. I've always hoped to find a complete recording of the score, but I have no idea who it was done by.
Last edited by Gagman 66 on Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:12 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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silentfilm
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Yes, the tinted version of Gold Rush on VHS or 16mm is the Killiam version.
Bruce Calvert
http://www.silentfilmstillarchive.com
http://www.silentfilmstillarchive.com
Bruce, Everyone,
No, let me say again that there was more than one multi-tinted version of THE GOLD RUSH floating around on home video at the same time that was available. One was from Blackhawk, the other from someone else. Roughly 1978 or 79. I used to get catalogue's from a couple other company's that seemed similar to Blackhawk. But I to not remember what they were called? The Blackawk release was the Paul Killiam version with a William Perry piano score. The other had a full-orchestra. Again, I can not confirm that this was the same Orchestra score I heard on that obscure forgotten cable channel in the very early 80's. It may not have been because that version definitely was not full-length. The other VHS was marketed as being the complete version of the film, just as the Killiam/Blackhawk version was.
I know all about the Killiam print having seen it on VHS tinted when it first came out. A few years later in a much improved Black and White version. And much more recently in the 90's the old AMC and TCM used to run it on occasion too. TCM as late as 2002? Though now, Bill Perry's piano score was considerably out of synch from what it had been when I first saw the Killiam print. I believe this was on laser-disc at some point which is probably what AMC and TCM ran. What I want to know is where the other "complete version" as advertised. listed as 89 Minutes at 24 Frames per second, and with Orchestral score came from? And the big question is what has become of that long un-seen version and long unheard musical score? If I had a composer's name that would help, but I don't, never did have one.
I'm convinced that there are portions of THE GOLD RUSH in it's 1925 form that have never been found. Someone mentioned the opening credit design? Well, the version that used to run on that old cable station had a much different credit design than I have seen elsewhere. When I saw the Kevin Brownlow/David Gill version I was disappointed that the difference some the much older Killiam print was not nearly as significant as I had hoped. Furthermore saddled with a Neil Brand Piano score that was nowhere near as good as Bill Perry's piano score had been.. That's not to mention the other Orchestral score that I once heard for THE GOLD RUSH. I know that Carl Davis had put together a score for the film, but it was never recorded for the Photoplay Warner DVD version. I'd also like to know what happened to the sheet music of the 1925 score found in Chaplin's vault in 1991?
No, let me say again that there was more than one multi-tinted version of THE GOLD RUSH floating around on home video at the same time that was available. One was from Blackhawk, the other from someone else. Roughly 1978 or 79. I used to get catalogue's from a couple other company's that seemed similar to Blackhawk. But I to not remember what they were called? The Blackawk release was the Paul Killiam version with a William Perry piano score. The other had a full-orchestra. Again, I can not confirm that this was the same Orchestra score I heard on that obscure forgotten cable channel in the very early 80's. It may not have been because that version definitely was not full-length. The other VHS was marketed as being the complete version of the film, just as the Killiam/Blackhawk version was.
I know all about the Killiam print having seen it on VHS tinted when it first came out. A few years later in a much improved Black and White version. And much more recently in the 90's the old AMC and TCM used to run it on occasion too. TCM as late as 2002? Though now, Bill Perry's piano score was considerably out of synch from what it had been when I first saw the Killiam print. I believe this was on laser-disc at some point which is probably what AMC and TCM ran. What I want to know is where the other "complete version" as advertised. listed as 89 Minutes at 24 Frames per second, and with Orchestral score came from? And the big question is what has become of that long un-seen version and long unheard musical score? If I had a composer's name that would help, but I don't, never did have one.
I'm convinced that there are portions of THE GOLD RUSH in it's 1925 form that have never been found. Someone mentioned the opening credit design? Well, the version that used to run on that old cable station had a much different credit design than I have seen elsewhere. When I saw the Kevin Brownlow/David Gill version I was disappointed that the difference some the much older Killiam print was not nearly as significant as I had hoped. Furthermore saddled with a Neil Brand Piano score that was nowhere near as good as Bill Perry's piano score had been.. That's not to mention the other Orchestral score that I once heard for THE GOLD RUSH. I know that Carl Davis had put together a score for the film, but it was never recorded for the Photoplay Warner DVD version. I'd also like to know what happened to the sheet music of the 1925 score found in Chaplin's vault in 1991?