Questions about Stroheim's Merry Widow

Lokke Heiss · Post by **Lokke Heiss** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:03 pm

I'm starting my review of last October's Pordenone festival, and had some questions about The Merry Widow.

My first question (for those who have seen the film) -- how do you feel about the ending? To me it felt strangely 'tacked on'?

The festival notes bring this up, but make the point that the ending was in the script, so that should not have been a surprise. But like a lot of Stroheim's work, it depends who you ask. My feeling is that he didn't know how he was going to end it, so it's a little of Mag. Ambersons syndrome, perhaps.

The foot fetish stuff is SO there. Are there some good bios about Stroheim that talk about this? Did this go on in his private life, or was he able to displace this urge into a 'footage fetish'?

Gagman 66 · Post by **Gagman 66** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:49 pm

I am quite certain that Erich was instructed to "Rap it Up, or Else!" by Irving Thalberg. If Von Stroheim had his way, THE MERRY WIDOW probably would have drug on for another 3 or 4 reels easy. Or at least a couple. So yes the ending is rather abrupt. But it also took Erich a lengthy period of time just to get to the crust of the story.

Many have remarked that Mae Murray was probably to old for the part of Sally O'Hara. It arguably should have went to a younger actress. Maybe Eleanor Boardman. Of course my first choice would always be Renee Adoree, but she was French, and Sally was supposed to be an Irish American from the Bronx. So I can understand that. But I don't know allot of fans who seem to take to May's character in the picture at all.

Incidentally, TCM is running this tomorrow night for those of you who haven't seen it. Again, I was hoping for an improved edition sometime, but it isn't likely to happen. The 2004 Orchestral score that I discovered is excellent and is probably either Robert Israel or Jillian Anderson? The Theater Organ music the TCM print has is not horrible, but the film really needs an orchestra. Obviously, I have no heard Maud Nillssen's new score. And I know I can never seem to spell her name correctly.

Post by **Danny Burk** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:00 pm

I've wondered if there might be a bit of footage missing. The (originally) Technicolor ending does seem a bit abrupt, and perhaps that's because there is a small amount missing at the splice?

Harlett O'Dowd · Post by **Harlett O'Dowd** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:03 pm

Gagman 66 wrote: I am quite certain that Erich was instructed to "Rap it Up, or Else!" by Irving Thalberg.

How are you certain? Have you seen memos to this effect?

Harlett O'Dowd · Post by **Harlett O'Dowd** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:09 pm

Lokke Heiss wrote:I'm starting my review of last October's Pordenone festival, and had some questions about The Merry Widow.

My first question (for those who have seen the film) -- how do you feel about the ending? To me it felt strangely 'tacked on'?

The film is quite odd in that it's more of a prequel to the operetta than an actual filming of it. It would be interesting to see a script for it, but I always walked away from it thinking that EVS told his backstory to its completion then tacked on the happy ending everyone who knew the operetta was expecting without bothering to deal with the muddle inbetween (which everyone - at least in the cities - at the time would have known.)

Not unlike the original French musical version of Les Miserables which assumes the audience already knows the work and only bothers with the famous passages (which is why the show needed to be expanded when it went to London then New York then around the world to have the story make *some* kind of sense to those unfamiliar with the work.)

milefilms · Post by **milefilms** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:22 pm

Obviously, I have no heard Maud Nillssen's new score. And I know I can never seem to spell her name correctly.

Maud Nelissen is a very fine composer out of the Nederlands. She performs a lot for Pordenone and Bologna.
http://www.maudnelissen.com/maineng.html

Chris Snowden · Post by **Chris Snowden** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:01 pm

Danny Burk wrote:I've wondered if there might be a bit of footage missing. The (originally) Technicolor ending does seem a bit abrupt, and perhaps that's because there is a small amount missing at the splice?

There's a longer version out there. I don't recall how many minutes it runs, but it was screened at the Stanford Theater a few years ago and they had to put an intermission in the middle of it.

Post by **Danny Burk** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:28 pm

Chris Snowden wrote:There's a longer version out there. I don't recall how many minutes it runs, but it was screened at the Stanford Theater a few years ago and they had to put an intermission in the middle of it.

That's really interesting and the first I've heard of it. Do you have any idea what the extra footage consists of, or where in the film it's located?

Chris Snowden · Post by **Chris Snowden** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:17 pm

Danny Burk wrote:
Chris Snowden wrote:There's a longer version out there. I don't recall how many minutes it runs, but it was screened at the Stanford Theater a few years ago and they had to put an intermission in the middle of it.
That's really interesting and the first I've heard of it. Do you have any idea what the extra footage consists of, or where in the film it's located?

I was there for the screening, and I remember liking this version better than the shorter one, but I don't recall the specific differences. Seems to me Dennis James was the organist that night, so if he's reading this, maybe he can step in! (Was anyone else there? Derek? Greta?)

The print was announced as the "road-show version," which surprised me, as I'd never heard that The Merry Widow was ever exhibited that way. Possibly it was, or possibly this was a cut that was shown at the opening engagements, subsequently shortened for general release.

Lokke Heiss · Post by **Lokke Heiss** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:02 am

The print was announced as the "road-show version," which surprised me, as I'd never heard that The Merry Widow was ever exhibited that way. Possibly it was, or possibly this was a cut that was shown at the opening engagements, subsequently shortened for general release.

Does anyone know if the version shown at Pordenone this fall was the 'road show' version?

I don't remember an intermission.

I taped the TCM show last night. What does anyone think about the organ score? In Pordenone, we had a full orchestra, and it really, really helped the film.

And does anyone have the bio book written about Stroheim? Is it any good? Does it give any bio details about his fetish interests? It seems to me that for all the talk about his perfectionism and fetish interest, there is VERY little discussion I've seen about it, other than his films.

By contrast, the bios about Lang go into this in some detail. It seems to me that Lang had similar proclivities, but was able to channel it better into his films.

FrankFay · Post by **FrankFay** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:16 pm

Lokke Heiss wrote: And does anyone have the bio book written about Stroheim? Is it any good? Does it give any bio details about his fetish interests? It seems to me that for all the talk about his perfectionism and fetish interest, there is VERY little discussion I've seen about it, other than his films.

Which bio do you mean: Koszarski or Lennig? I'm not aware that either of them go into that sort of detail about his private life- straightening out the half-truths and bold faced lies he told about his life is work enough.

drednm · Post by **drednm** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:29 pm

How old is Sally supposed to be? Murray claimed to be 36.....

Harlett O'Dowd · Post by **Harlett O'Dowd** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:31 pm

Lokke Heiss wrote:
I taped the TCM show last night. What does anyone think about the organ score? In Pordenone, we had a full orchestra, and it really, really helped the film.

I'm biased towards the organ score as I was in the house when it was recorded.

And while a lot of folks here prefer that well-known themes *not* be used in silent scores, I found the Lehar in this organ score to be effective.

That said, if there is a roadshow version of this title out there with more footage in it, I would *love* to see it - and wouldn't it be wonderful if TCM could prepare it for broadcast/DVD with an organ score.

Penfold · Post by **Penfold** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 3:26 pm

Harlett O'Dowd wrote:
Lokke Heiss wrote:
I taped the TCM show last night. What does anyone think about the organ score? In Pordenone, we had a full orchestra, and it really, really helped the film.
I'm biased towards the organ score as I was in the house when it was recorded.

And while a lot of folks here prefer that well-known themes *not* be used in silent scores, I found the Lehar in this organ score to be effective.

That said, if there is a roadshow version of this title out there with more footage in it, I would *love* to see it - and wouldn't it be wonderful if TCM could prepare it for broadcast/DVD with an organ score.

Maud Nelissen uses themes from Lehar in her score too....you sort of HAVE to with a title such as this.

daveboz · Post by **daveboz** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:59 pm

Lokke Heiss wrote:
[snip]

I taped the TCM show last night. What does anyone think about the organ score? In Pordenone, we had a full orchestra, and it really, really helped the film.

[snip]

=================

I really liked Dennis James' organ score—what a great recording! Big, rich, powerful—I was reminded of King Vidor's statement attributing 40 or 50% of a movie's effect to the musical score. Bravo, Mr. James!

spadeneal · Post by **spadeneal** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:04 pm

drednm wrote:How old is Sally supposed to be? Murray claimed to be 36.....

Mizzi Gunther, who played Murray's equivalent in the original stage production, was 26.

spadeneal

Post by **silentfilm** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:46 pm

Von: The Life and Films of Erich Von Stroheim is a great book, but it's been a couple of years and I don't remember him getting into Von Stroheim's foot fetish. I had originally owned his original version, The Man You Loved to Hate, and Kozarski greatly rewrote the book for the second version.

Lokke Heiss · Post by **Lokke Heiss** » Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:55 pm

Which bio do you mean: Koszarski or Lennig? I'm not aware that either of them go into that sort of detail about his private life- straightening out the half-truths and bold faced lies he told about his life is work enough.

Which do you think is better? I don't want to get both.

With Spoto's book on the psychosexual stuff on Hitch, and a similar book on Lang, it seems odd that no one has tackled Stroheim, a more obvious target. Discussion of Stroheim seems to keep circling around Greed and Thalberg, which is about as dead an argument or discussion as you can get.

I've been watching the Merry Widow version on TCM and it's giving me a headache trying to figure out their differences.

It seems to me that in the Merry Widow shown at Pordenone, they spent more moments in the inn at the beginning. But maybe I'm thinking of later in the film. So much Stroheim, so little time.

missdupont · Post by **missdupont** » Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:12 pm

Lennig quotes Billy Wilder talking about von Stroheim's obsessions thusly: "This obsession with foot fetishism, underwear fetishism, other sexual perversions which his pictures are filled with, was the real Stroheim. He loved to go into details about his own fetishes and how he had satisfied them... ." Lenning wasn't sure this was the truth, that perhaps Wilder had been taken in by a man who knew how to put on a good show and be something he was not.

In Mark Vieira's Thalberg biography, he states, "Murray then went to Thalberg and complained that Stroheim was shooting pornographic scenes. "This is filth," she told Thalberg. "Kissing people's bottoms and kissing feet, and an old man behaving obscenely with a closet full of shoes!"
"You'll never see eye to eye with von Stroheim," Thalberg answered. "The man's a genius. He's giving the picture dimension." When Thalberg finally saw the almost interminable rushes, he questioned Stroheim.
"The old man is a degenerate," said Stroheim. "He has a foot fetish."
"And you, sir," snapped Thalberg, "have a footage fetish!"

FrankFay · Post by **FrankFay** » Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:38 pm

Lokke Heiss wrote:
Which bio do you mean: Koszarski or Lennig? I'm not aware that either of them go into that sort of detail about his private life- straightening out the half-truths and bold faced lies he told about his life is work enough.
Which do you think is better? I don't want to get both.

Why not get both? They're available in paperback editions cheaply enough.

Lokke Heiss · Post by **Lokke Heiss** » Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:01 pm

Why not get both? They're available in paperback editions cheaply enough.

I checked amazon.com, and the revised versions of both titles are selling for around ten dollars and up, with no cheap or used paperbacks available for the new editions. Total cost for both books -- thirty dollars and up when you add postage.

Do you know of another source?

gjohnson · Post by **gjohnson** » Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:14 pm

Public library??....

Gary J.

Post by **Danny Burk** » Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:29 pm

I haven't looked for this title, but the search service that I use is

www.addall.com

Go to the "used" section. Best I've found - it checks Amazon, Alibris, Abebooks, and many others, over a range of countries. I've found quite a few out of print books that I never expected to turn up. You'll typically find both midrange and absurd pricing when a quantity of the same title is available, and often a bargain too.

FrankFay · Post by **FrankFay** » Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:43 pm

Lokke Heiss wrote:
Why not get both? They're available in paperback editions cheaply enough.
I checked amazon.com, and the revised versions of both titles are selling for around ten dollars and up, with no cheap or used paperbacks available for the new editions. Total cost for both books -- thirty dollars and up when you add postage.

Do you know of another source?

I checked Bookfinder.com on the Lennig book, copies of the hardcover are around 7-8 bucks, I didn't check the other. But I wouldn't consider that particularly expensive unless you're very restricted budgetwise.

Gagman 66 · Post by **Gagman 66** » Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:18 pm

With respect to Dennis James, THE MERRY WIDOW really needs an Orchestral score. It's disappointing that two scores are around and TCM is not able to use either of them? The Theater organ is OK for live performance, but it less effective on DVD or television.

Warner Archive apparently just released the Dennis James version? So a new print and either the Robert Israel or Maud Nelissen scores aren't likely to be heard any time soon. Pity.

Are they using a Dual-Layer disc at least???

Questions about Stroheim's Merry Widow

Questions about Stroheim's Merry Widow

Re: Questions about Stroheim's Merry Widow