New York Times: An Independent Woman, Nobly Suffering in Sil

Post by **silentfilm** » Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:39 am

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/14/movie ... 4kehr.html

An Independent Woman, Nobly Suffering in Silents

By DAVE KEHR
Published: March 11, 2010
SHE was perhaps the biggest female star of the silent era. Her dark, depthless eyes gazed from the covers of influential fan magazines, projecting a nobly suppressed pain and longing; in the stories inside, she — or her ghost writers — advised the emerging independent American women of the 1920s on matters of fashion and home décor. She regularly topped the popularity polls, outdistancing rivals like Gloria Swanson, Pola Negri and Mary Pickford. She and her husband, the producer Joseph Schenck, founded their own production company in 1917; by 1924, The New York Times was identifying her as “the highest salaried screen actress.”

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Joseph Yranski and Kino International
Constance Talmadge in “Her Sister From Paris” (1925). A sister of Norma, Constance enjoyed a career as a light comedian.

Yet Norma Talmadge is barely remembered today. Worse, she is misremembered, having inspired two unfair caricatures that have lived on in a pair of popular films. In “Singin’ in the Rain” (1952), she is parodied as Lina Lamont (Jean Hagen), a silent diva whose Brooklyn accent undermines her talking debut in a French historical drama. (Talmadge’s second sound feature, the 1930 “DuBarry, Woman of Passion,” was indeed a failure, but Talmadge’s faint accent was the least of its problems.)

More malignantly, Billy Wilder used Norma Talmadge as the obvious if unacknowledged source of Norma Desmond, the grotesque, predatory silent movie queen of his 1950 film “Sunset Boulevard.” Enthusiastically interpreted by Gloria Swanson, Talmadge’s rival in the 1920s, the Desmond character draws on Talmadge’s reclusiveness (she left films in 1930, living in a Beverly Hills mansion on the considerable fortune she had earned in her prime), her well-known affair with a younger man (the actor Gilbert Roland, her co-star in several ’20s hits) and her reputation for erratic behavior (suffering from severe arthritis, she became addicted to painkillers and in 1946 married her doctor) to compose the movies’ ultimate symbol of female sexual hysteria.

Norma Desmond has become ubiquitous in American popular culture, but Norma Talmadge has become all but invisible. Although an unusually high percentage of her films survive — “Of her 51 features, 32 are currently thought to be complete and 10 more are preserved in part,” Greta de Groat writes on her excellent Talmadge Web site (stanford.edu/~gdegroat/NT/home.htm) — until now only a handful of her earlier movies have been available on home video.

“The Norma Talmadge Collection” from Kino International corrects that lamentable situation by offering two Talmadge features from her glory years: the 1926 comedy “Kiki,” directed by Clarence Brown, and the 1923 melodrama “Within the Law,” directed by Frank Lloyd. Oddly, neither film is typical Talmadge. “Kiki” is a wholly anomalous comedy, with Talmadge as a Parisian street urchin who becomes a music hall star, and “Within the Law” strays from melodrama into crime-film territory. But there is enough here to get a sense of who Talmadge was and what her gifts were.

Born in Jersey City and raised in Brooklyn, Talmadge often played working-class women betrayed by upper-class cads. In “Within the Law” she’s a department store salesgirl unjustly accused of shoplifting by her employer. Sent to prison, she meets a less scrupulous inmate (Eileen Percy), and together they hatch a scheme to soak the rich through breach-of-promise suits.

In the most resonant moment Percy comes across Talmadge in the prison yard, where she looks up from tending a flower, her eyes set in the expression of distant yearning that was one of her trademarks. “Say, kid!” Percy observes in an intertitle, “If you ever pull that baby stare on a rich old guy, you could pick the gold fillings out of his teeth!”

This is manifestly true, yet Talmadge was anything but the man-baiting vamp frequently portrayed by Swanson and Negri. At a time when women made up the majority of the moviegoing public, she was not a sex object intended for male consumption but a figure women could identify with, struggling with issues of autonomy and identity. The grieving mothers, betrayed wives and reluctant courtesans she incarnated were confronting — in a melodramatically heightened form — the hypocrisies of a social system that subjugated women by idealizing them. Talmadge’s suffering heroines were damned if they played by the rules (of marriage, motherhood and domesticity), doubly damned if they did not (by stepping outside moral regulations to take matters into their own hands).

Far from the hideous grimaces of Norma Desmond, Talmadge’s mime is subtle, flowing and natural, her emotions exact, her transitions graceful. And yet it is a kind of acting that modern audiences inevitably underestimate. In the decades before the Method taught us to appreciate the (apparently) spontaneous expression of an inner reality, screen acting, particularly in the silent era, was more concerned with the clean, clear delineation of significant surfaces — a repertory of gestures and facial expressions with agreed-upon meanings. On that level Talmadge is a virtuoso, precise in her attack, flawless in her smooth succession of different moods.

As a companion piece, Kino is also issuing “The Constance Talmadge Collection,” a disc devoted to Norma’s younger sister. (There was a third Talmadge sister, Natalie, who married Buster Keaton and did him no good.) Taller and more animated than Norma, Constance dyed her hair blond and enjoyed a career as a light comedian, though she never equaled her sister in popularity. The two films in the Kino set — “Her Night of Romance” (1924) and “Her Sister from Paris” (1925) — were both directed by Sidney Franklin, written by Hanns Kraly (best known for his work with Ernst Lubitsch) and feature Colman as her romantic partner. With a vivacity that looks forward to Carole Lombard, Constance conforms more to contemporary tastes than does her sister, though her art is not as substantial.

All of the films in these sets come from the Library of Congress’s newly completed Packard Campus of the National Audio-Visual Conservation Center, a precious institution that also houses, on its 90 miles of shelving, Norma’s two films for the great director Frank Borzage, “Secrets” (1924) and “The Lady” (1925). Here’s hoping that future volumes of “The Norma Talmadge Collection” find room for that pair, reputed to be among Talmadge’s best. Like a character in one of her own films, this much-abused woman deserves to have her reputation restored. (Kino International, $29.95 each, not rated)

R Michael Pyle · Post by **R Michael Pyle** » Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:09 pm

That's a nice, thoughtful, insightful, and, I think, accurate, evaluation of Norma Talmadge.

dr.giraud · Post by **dr.giraud** » Sat Mar 13, 2010 2:32 pm

Nice shout-out to Greta, too!

Gagman 66 · Post by **Gagman 66** » Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:41 pm

Wow! Great article. But I don't think He gives poor Constance much credit here? Incidentally, does GRAUSTARK (1925) survive? And does anyone know what archive that it is in? Has anyone seen it before?

greta de groat · Post by **greta de groat** » Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:10 pm

I"ve seen the parts of Graustark that the Library of Congress has, which was reels 2 and 4-7. I'm told that GEH has a 6 reel 28mm version, but i don't know anything further about that other than it was listed as "not projectable."

greta

Gagman 66 · Post by **Gagman 66** » Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:24 pm

Greta,

So in other words, GRAUSTARK does not exist in complete form? Is this correct? Or like KIKI, could it perhaps be pieced together from several incomplete prints? Still 32 complete films? That's quite a few. Colleen Moore doesn't have anywhere near that many.

greta de groat · Post by **greta de groat** » Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:41 pm

I don't know what's in that 28mm print, so i don't know if it's complete or not. Hopefully somebody can look at it someday and find out.

greta

Gagman 66 · Post by **Gagman 66** » Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:55 pm

Greta,

Well, a 35 mm blow up from 28 Millimeter, would probably be allot better than one from 16. If it's in good shape? So that's a plus. Maybe something can be done with it. Thanks.

Is there any updated news on EAST IS WEST?

drednm · Post by **drednm** » Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:56 pm

Norma Talmadge is excellent in Secrets but is magnificent in The Lady, still my favorite Norma Talmadge performance although one reel is missing.

Frederica · Post by **Frederica** » Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:59 am

It's a good review, and I'm very pleased to see the shout outs to both The Mighty Joe Yranski and our very own Greta de Groat. (Big slam dunk for the DoNs.) Not to mention the idea that Norma Talmadge's reputation is finally being burnished a little, long time coming. But I'm feeling contrarian this morning and I haven't finished my first cup of coffee yet. I'm flummoxed by this:

More malignantly, Billy Wilder used Norma Talmadge as the obvious if unacknowledged source of Norma Desmond, the grotesque, predatory silent movie queen of his 1950 film “Sunset Boulevard.

Nearly every silent actress in Hollywood has been presented to me at one time or another as the model for Norma Desmond, although that role is usually assigned to Norma Shearer or Mae Murray. Did Wilder ever say that he'd based the character on a real person? I haven't read that much about Wilder, so dunno. Kehr uses the word "unacknowledged" which leads me to believe that he didn't.. Wilder was, of course, a second-rate hack, so he couldn't possibly have created the role out of his own imagination. (IRONY EMOTICON.)

Secondly...holy cow, did Kehr see a different Sunset Boulevard than I did? Norma Desmond is "predatory?" Norma Desmond is tragic and deluded and fragile and quite nutty, but it's Joe Gillis who is the predator, and a darned loathesome one he is, too. That he's intelligent enough to know he's a barnacle doesn't make him any more likeable.

Or did I see that other Sunset Boulevard?

azjazzman · Post by **azjazzman** » Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:29 pm

Frederica wrote:It's a good review, and I'm very pleased to see the shout outs to both The Mighty Joe Yranski and our very own Greta de Groat. (Big slam dunk for the DoNs.) Not to mention the idea that Norma Talmadge's reputation is finally being burnished a little, long time coming. But I'm feeling contrarian this morning and I haven't finished my first cup of coffee yet. I'm flummoxed by this:

More malignantly, Billy Wilder used Norma Talmadge as the obvious if unacknowledged source of Norma Desmond, the grotesque, predatory silent movie queen of his 1950 film “Sunset Boulevard.
Nearly every silent actress in Hollywood has been presented to me at one time or another as the model for Norma Desmond, although that role is usually assigned to Norma Shearer or Mae Murray. Did Wilder ever say that he'd based the character on a real person? I haven't read that much about Wilder, so dunno. Kehr uses the word "unacknowledged" which leads me to believe that he didn't.. Wilder was, of course, a second-rate hack, so he couldn't possibly have created the role out of his own imagination. (IRONY EMOTICON.)

Secondly...holy cow, did Kehr see a different Sunset Boulevard than I did? Norma Desmond is "predatory?" Norma Desmond is tragic and deluded and fragile and quite nutty, but it's Joe Gillis who is the predator, and a darned loathesome one he is, too. That he's intelligent enough to know he's a barnacle doesn't make him any more likeable.

Or did I see that other Sunset Boulevard?

Norma Shearer as model for Norma Desmond? Other than first names, what do they have in common? That's absurd!

As far as N.D. being predatory, you must have been napping during the sequence where she attempts "suicide". Pretty darn predatory, if you ask me, as Wilder underlines with the creepy shot of Norma wrapping her arms around Joe Gillis' head like a python.

David Pierce · Post by **David Pierce** » Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:33 pm

greta de groat wrote:I"ve seen the parts of Graustark that the Library of Congress has, which was reels 2 and 4-7. I'm told that GEH has a 6 reel 28mm version, but i don't know anything further about that other than it was listed as "not projectable."

greta

The edition of "Graustark" that was released in 28mm is the 1915 version produced by Essanay, starring Francis X Bushman, and is not the Talmadge picture.

David Pierce

greta de groat · Post by **greta de groat** » Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:44 pm

Oh, i knew the Essanay existed, but i didn't know that it was that particular print. Thanks for the info and i'll update my listing.

And in that case, then the incomplete print at LOC is the only one i know about.

thanks
greta

drednm · Post by **drednm** » Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:49 pm

Most often, Norma Desmond is seen as simply being Gloria Swanson, which is patently absurd. I'm sure Norma is based on bits and pieces from the lives of many silent stars. I certainly don't see Miss Desmond as being based on Swanson, Norma Shearer, Norma Talmadge, Mae Murray, or even Marion Davies... all names that have suraced as sources.

It's a brilliant performance by Swanson and solely hers and Wilder's invention.

Frederica · Post by **Frederica** » Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:46 pm

Norma Shearer as model for Norma Desmond? Other than first names, what do they have in common? That's absurd!

It is, but I've seen her named as the model for Norma Desmond. Norma Talmadge doesn't seem to have had any more in common with the character either, other than the first name. I wonder who we'd be identifying as the model for Norma Desmond if she's been named Lillian Desmond? or Mary Desmond? We'd all immediately recognize that as silly. I don't see where there had to be a model for the character, that denies the idea of writerly creativity. Wilder was perfectly capable of making her up all on his own.

As far as N.D. being predatory, you must have been napping during the sequence where she attempts "suicide". Pretty darn predatory, if you ask me, as Wilder underlines with the creepy shot of Norma wrapping her arms around Joe Gillis' head like a python.

OK, well, different strokes. I find that pathetic and desperate, but Gillis knows exactly what is going on, and he can (and should) walk away. He leeches off Norma financially, and--worse--emotionally, and he knows how nutty she is and how damaging his leeching is. I'm not at all sorry when he finally gets his pool.

drednm · Post by **drednm** » Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:00 pm

Despite the claw imagery and animals skins, I don't see Norma as being predatory at all...

azjazzman · Post by **azjazzman** » Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:04 pm

Frederica wrote:
Norma Shearer as model for Norma Desmond? Other than first names, what do they have in common? That's absurd!

It is, but I've seen her named as the model for Norma Desmond. Norma Talmadge doesn't seem to have had any more in common with the character either, other than the first name. I wonder who we'd be identifying as the model for Norma Desmond if she's been named Lillian Desmond? or Mary Desmond? We'd all immediately recognize that as silly. I don't see where there had to be a model for the character, that denies the idea of writerly creativity. Wilder was perfectly capable of making her up all on his own.
Well, Normas Desmond and Talmadge at least had in common the fact that they were huge silent stars whose careers basically ended when talkies came in. Something you certainly cannot say about Shearer.

As far as N.D. being predatory, you must have been napping during the sequence where she attempts "suicide". Pretty darn predatory, if you ask me, as Wilder underlines with the creepy shot of Norma wrapping her arms around Joe Gillis' head like a python.

Frederica wrote:OK, well, different strokes. I find that pathetic and desperate, but Gillis knows exactly what is going on, and he can (and should) walk away. He leeches off Norma financially, and--worse--emotionally, and he knows how nutty she is and how damaging his leeching is. I'm not at all sorry when he finally gets his pool.

Goofy perspective, imo. The fake suicide sucking Gillis in when he is finally ready to admit he made a mistake getting involved in the first place is about as predatory as it gets. Norma is not a victim, at least not an unwilling one.

I had something very similar to this happen to me, and I can tell you, crazy and predatory (or more accurately, manipulative) are NOT mutually exclusive...in fact, they generally go hand in hand.

Gagman 66 · Post by **Gagman 66** » Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:19 pm

Sorry to hear that GRAUSTARK is in-complete. What about this film?

Norma with Gilbert Roland-"THE WOMAN DISPUTED" (1928)

drednm · Post by **drednm** » Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:26 pm

A Woman Disputed apparently had a music/sound effects track which is missing, but it was otherwise Talmadge's final silent film and exists as such.....

Frederica · Post by **Frederica** » Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:45 pm

azjazzman wrote:
Frederica wrote:OK, well, different strokes. I find that pathetic and desperate, but Gillis knows exactly what is going on, and he can (and should) walk away. He leeches off Norma financially, and--worse--emotionally, and he knows how nutty she is and how damaging his leeching is. I'm not at all sorry when he finally gets his pool.
Goofy perspective, imo. The fake suicide sucking Gillis in when he is finally ready to admit he made a mistake getting involved in the first place is about as predatory as it gets. Norma is not a victim, at least not an unwilling one.
.

Whatever.

Gagman 66 · Post by **Gagman 66** » Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:55 pm

Ed,

Err, Why does Norma look allot younger here than she did in KIKI, when this was actually made two years later??? Kind of confusing.

I swear that Gilbert Roland must have discovered the Fountain of Youth, as He never aged hardly any for another 35 years. Was that really him singing in THE FRENCH LINE?

This is the best photo I have of Norma. I need some good pictures of her. Have quite a few of Constance. Isn't this the same as was used on her DVD cover? Seems to be?

Norma Talmadge-Younger, and Very Pretty

Constance Talmadge as "Lola La Perry"

tlanza · Post by **tlanza** » Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:30 pm

Hi. WOMAN DISPUTED will be playing as part of the San Francisco Silent Film Festival. It's a really strong film (perhaps made stronger by the absence of the track and title song!). Picture quality is very good and there is quite possibly an uncredited Chaplin cameo.

Best,
Tim Lanza

rogerskarsten · Post by **rogerskarsten** » Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:36 pm

tlanza wrote:Hi. WOMAN DISPUTED will be playing as part of the San Francisco Silent Film Festival. It's a really strong film (perhaps made stronger by the absence of the track and title song!). Picture quality is very good and there is quite possibly an uncredited Chaplin cameo.

Best,
Tim Lanza

This is very exciting news; I'll have to consider attending the SFSFF again (haven't been there since 2004).

Depending on the sales of the first entry in the KINO Norma Talmadge collection, maybe this would make a good candidate for a second release (with SMILIN' THROUGH or the fragments of CAMILLE, perhaps?).

By the way, my copies of the Norma and Constance films arrived yesterday from KINO; won't be able to get to them for a while, since I'm designating them a "treat" in return for making progress on other projects. It's a good motivator!

Post by **Danny Burk** » Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:47 pm

WOMAN DISPUTED and SMILIN' THROUGH certainly get my vote for an upcoming release; I've never seen either of them. And the possibility of THE DOVE, as Tim mentioned earlier, would be incredible.

My copies of both DVDs arrived from Kino a few days ago. I've watched one from each so far, with the others to follow this week. I'm very pleased with them and hope that they're just the first of many to come...

tlanza · Post by **tlanza** » Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:58 am

Hi. I recently did some digging through the Joseph Schenck Productions ledgers through 1926 and find the following "Paid & Played" revenue figures for Buster Keaton (unfortunately, doesn't include THE GENERAL), Norma Talmadge, and Constance Talmadge

Buster Keaton:
THREE AGES (09/24/23): $429,405.90
OUR HOSPITALITY (11/19/23): $512,852.84
SHERLOCK JR (04/21/24): $428,776.00
NAVIGATOR (10/12/24): 588,749.24
SEVEN CHANCES (03/16/25): $513,990.70
GO WEST (11/01/25): $430,372.02
BATTLING BUTLER (09/19/26): $445,024.41
THE BOAT was the highest grossing short at $156,124.08

Norma Talmadge:
DAUGHTER OF TWO WORLDS (01/05/20): $462,461.87 (as of 04/3/26)
WOMAN GIVES (03/29/20): $463,313.74 (as of 04/3/26)
YES OR NO (06/28/20): $472,889.59 (as of 04/3/26)
BRANDED WOMAN (09/20/20): $465,943.11 (as of 04/3/26)
LOVE OR HATE (04/03/21): $443,159.84 (as of 04/3/26)
SIGN ON THE DOOR (07/17/21): $482,899.61 (as of 04/3/26)
WONDERFUL THING (11/06/21): $403,171.66 (as of 04/3/26)
LOVE'S REDEMPTION (12/19/21): $393,547.89 (as of 04/3/26)
SMILIN' THROGH (04/16/22): $1,055,274.07 (as of 1/1/27)
ETERNAL FLAME (09/11/22): $933,461.18 (as of 1/1/27)
VOICE FROM THE MINARET (02/03/23): $880,381.43 (as of 1/1/27)
WITHIN THE LAW (04/30/23): $879,322.92 (as of 1/1/27)
ASHES OF VENGEANCE (08/04/23): $1,063,481.28 (as of 1/1/27)
SONG OF LOVE (02/25/24): $757,181.52 (as of 1/1/27)
SECRETS (09/02/24): $1,145,955.77 (as of 1/1/27)
ONLY WOMAN (10/26/24): $852,434.23 (as of 1/1/27)
THE LADY (02/08/25): $832,454.57 (as of 1/1/27)
GRAUSTARK (08/30/25): $976,211.06 (as of 1/1/27)
KIKI (04/04/26): $977,047.58 (as of 1/1/27)
CAMILLE (04/21/27): $13,397.00 (Bookings as of 1/1/27)

Constance Talmadge:
TEMPERMENTAL WIFE (09/18/19): $292,638.70 (as of 2/27/26)
VIRTUOUS VAMP (11/3/19): $294,600.40 (as of 2/27/26)
TWO WEEKS (01/12/20): $284,993.28 (as of 2/27/26)
IN SEARCH OF A SINNER (02/23/20): $337,719.95 (as of 2/27/26)
LOVE EXPERT (04/25/20): $330,597.95 (as of 2/27/26)
PERFECT WOMAN (07/19/20): $318,672.49 (as of 2/27/26)
GOOD REFERENCES (09/27/20): $336,964.82 (as of 2/27/26)
DANGEROUS BUSINESS (11/22/20): $364,401.81 (as of 2/27/26)
MAMA'S AFFAIR (01/31/21): $297,265.58 (as of 2/27/26)
LESSONS IN LOVE (05/21/21): $345,021.06 (as of 2/27/26)
WEDDING BELLS (08/15/21): $325,907.02 (as of 2/27/26)
WOMAN'S PLACE (10/16/21): $302,449.11 (as of 2/27/26)
POLLY OF THE FOLLIES (01/30/22): $291,624.01 (as of 04/03/26)
PRIMITIVE LOVER (05/15/22): $310,762.08 (as of 08/28/26)
EAST IS WEST (10/30/22): $797,380.15 (as of 1/1/27)
DULCY (08/27/23): $526,528.70 (as of 1/1/27)
DANGEROUS MAID (12/09/23): $382,739.72 (as of 1/1/27)
GOLDFISH (03/31/24): $386,570.43 (as of 1/1/27)
HER NIGHT OF ROMANCE (11/09/24): $453,627.52 (as of 1/1/27)
LEARNING TO LOVE (01/25/25): $403,702.79
HER SISTER FROM PARIS* (08/02/25): $530,494.49 (as of 1/1/27)*Listed as "MAN SHE BOUGHT" in the index
DUCHESS OF BUFFALO (09/05/26): $380,286.54 (as of 1/1/27)

Just thought you'd like to know.

Best,
Tim

drednm · Post by **drednm** » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:19 pm

Thanks, Tim... I love this stuff....

These figure also bear out that Norma's Smilin' Through was one of her biggest hits.

The figures for Constance look about on par with those for Marion Davies....

Gagman 66 · Post by **Gagman 66** » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:20 pm

tlanza,

Thanks you for the information about "WOMAN DISPUTED" it's great to have confirmation that the film not only survives, but it starting to see some screenings here and there. Wish I could be in San Francisco for the event in the Summer.

drednm · Post by **drednm** » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:47 pm

Norma had three films break a million in receipts in the 1920s. Aside from Chaplin and Lloyd, I wonder how many others stars broke the million mark ??

tlanza · Post by **tlanza** » Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:25 pm

Hi Ed. A post on Dave Kehr's website made me realize that I was probably not being clear. The figures I have are from Schenck Production's ledgers and I believe would reflect what they received in terms of rental revenue. This means that the films actually took in more at the Box Office than the amount I listed.
Best,
Tim

drednm · Post by **drednm** » Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:25 pm

even more impressive