The Academy Screens The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse

[Frederica]

http://losangeles.broadwayworld.com/art ... 0_20100630

[rogerskarsten]

I assume the Carl Davis score will not be performed live?

[Gagman 66]

No, I believe I read that it was going to have the Davis track recorded on the 35 Millimeter print. Now if we could just get a DVD release. Also wouldn't hurt if Photoplay could get it's restoration of THE EAGLE on TCM. Should be ORPHANS OF THE STORM tonight. Only the second time that TCM has broadcast the Photoplay edition.

[Chuck W]

Live or not, this is definitely a great way to see this film, especially since it's becoming increasingly more difficult to find. That it will be accompanied by the Carl Davis score is just the cherry on the chocolate covered sundae.

[Gagman 66]

Chuck W,

I still doubt that FOUR HORSEMEN will be released through Warner Archive,. However, it seems that they are upgrading the product a little, so it isn't impossible. No surprise to me that no Warner Archive Silent releases have had Carl Davis scores so far.

[rudyfan]

Make no mistake, seeing this on the big screen is the way to go. as always, incredible!

[missdupont]

A beautiful print, with Kevin Brownlow's excellent introduction, and at the end, Haberkamp interviewed Brownlow about the film and Ingram. Haberkamp also announced that UPSTREAM will play at the Goldwyn on September 1, tickets will probably go on sale August 1.

[Frederica]

A beautiful print, with Kevin Brownlow's excellent introduction, and at the end, Haberkamp interviewed Brownlow about the film and Ingram. Haberkamp also announced that UPSTREAM will play at the Goldwyn on September 1, tickets will probably go on sale August 1.

It was a knockout, and the house was almost full and very appreciative, not bad for a Tuesday night. The small screen does not do this film justice. I dunno, I think that Valentino kid has a career.

Here's a review from friend who is a silent newbie:

I fell in love with Alice Terry. I mean here she was, trying to be a good wife and stuff on the one hand, but there is Rudy, and then her (sniff) husband gets all wounded and stuff, and she (choke) decides to search for him, and then she finds him and (sob) stands by him, but she is like still carrying a torch for Rudy, and so she decides to leave Laurier, but she like can't and...

...I am going to stay in bed for the next few hours and bawl. I probably won't be in the office until early afternoon. Hold my calls.

[rudyfan]

Okay, I'm now finally feeling like I almost have enough sleep to be coherent, I'll start with the easy one.

This was my first screening at the Goldwyn. Wow, what a nice venue! Plush auditorium and great stuff in the lobby. I'm sorry we got there late enough so that I did not have time to look at all the yummy Chuck Jones stuff in the lobby. Hopefully I can squeeze that in next month.

Got to give props first and foremost to Patrick Stanbury who manned the magical machine in booth that synched the film with the score and controlled the speed of the print going through the gate. Not a single hitch in the projection and after repeated viewings of the film on TV (definitely a lesser experience) I feel I know the Davis score fairly well. It was a dead on match. I'm sorry Patrick was not down for the Q&A as I would have liked to ask him about this process. I gather Mr. B said this was designed by the Photoplay team and I would have liked to hear a bit more about it. One great thing I did learn was that The Four Horsemen themselves took their ride down Pico Blvd. It did not lessen the effect of seeing them riding in the sky later on.

To the film, yes, I am a Valentino fan and maybe I am biased. All that being said, The Four Horsemen stands on its own, even had Valentino not been cast. This is the definition of a grand epic on film and I far prefer it to the later, much loved, Vidor film The Big Parade. Apologies to all, I really do feel this is the better film.

Rex Ingram's direction is great, the camera work stunning and the scenario by June Mathis beautiful. The love story in the film by today's standards is more than hackneyed, but it is handled with such delicacy, it so totally works. I'm sucked in to the film from the moment the thundering score begins until the tragic ending.

The grand battle scenes mix real war footage with the staged and it works. The Carl Davis score (really his best work IMO) adds to the drama and supports the action as it should. This really is how a silent film should be seen.

It was a great night and on a personal note I have to add, it was great to see a lot of people in the LA film community I've not seen in a long while and to meet a lot of new people (including Frank T and his lovely partner in crime Claire). I had the added joy of having some non-silent film LA-centric friends show up to see the film based on my recommendation. They were not dissapointed in it. That was a bonus and I'm afraid we clogged the aisle during the intermission saying hello and catching up.

Props to Randy Hamberkamp and the Academy for screening the film in the best possible fashion. I hope to be able to come down and enjoy these events more often. It was a really great night to see a film like this with a receptive and appreciative audience. Truly, an event in every sense of the word.

[Gagman 66]

I have to disagree. I like FOUR HORSEMEN allot, but it's nowhere near as good as THE BIG PARADE. Allot of that seems to be your bias pro Valentino, and based on the Carl Davis score. Have you heard his score to THE BIG PARADE? In essence both films appear to be in the same boat, since neither is on DVD. Unlike THE BIG PARADE, FOUR HORSEMEN is technically Public Domain. Meaning that Warner's doesn't have to be the one's to release it. So why hasn't Photoplay's version been released by Kino, Milestone, Image, or at least somebody? It's not even available in Region 2, and never has been that I know of. There was the MGM Laser-disc years ago. And I'm not counting the bargain DVD-R version from Delta Entertainment. That looked like a VHS dupe of the Photoplay version, with the tints turned down to zero, so it appeared to be Black and White.

[Frederica]

I have to disagree. I like FOUR HORSEMEN allot, but it's nowhere near as good as THE BIG PARADE. Allot of that seems to be your bias pro Valentino, and based on the Carl Davis score.

Or perhaps you might be biased. Just a thought.

For the record, I prefer Four Horsemen (the film and the Davis score) to The Big Parade, too. Please be very careful when you tell me how wrong my opinion is.

[Gagman 66]

I am biased. I'll admit. I'm always going to take Renee Adoree over Alice Terry. I think that THE BIG PARADE has a better supporting cast overall.

Doesn't address the issue of why no one anywhere has released FOUR HORSEMEN ON DVD, if it is Public Domain???

[rudyfan]

I have to disagree. I like FOUR HORSEMEN allot, but it's nowhere near as good as THE BIG PARADE. Allot of that seems to be your bias pro Valentino, and based on the Carl Davis score.

Didja read my post? Pertinent quote below, emphasis added.

To the film, yes, I am a Valentino fan and maybe I am biased. All that being said, The Four Horsemen stands on its own, even had Valentino not been cast. This is the definition of a grand epic on film and I far prefer it to the later, much loved, Vidor film The Big Parade. Apologies to all, I really do feel this is the better film.

I'm not going to argue with you gagman, we all have our opinions and mine differs from yours on this film. So what? Get over it, please.

Have you heard his score to THE BIG PARADE? In essence both films appear to be in the same boat, since neither is on DVD. Unlike THE BIG PARADE, FOUR HORSEMEN is technically Public Domain.

Yes, I have heard the Davis score. I've seen The Big Parade many times. As I said, not going to argue semantics with you. I do not agree with you and it makes no difference one way or the other why. It's not a personal attack on you or King Vidor. Since he's dead I am sure he does not care whether or not I like it better or not.

Back to Four Horsemen, I'm not sure the film is PD. The rights were held by MGM and the film was an MGM re-release in 1924. In addition I believe the copyright was renewed for the 1962 remake. The Photoplay restoration is under copyright. Others with more knowledge than I can clarify if they want. Warners has ALL the rights to release the Photoplay restoration, or not. Don't be mistaken about that.

[Frederica]

I am biased. I'll admit. I'm always going to take Renee Adoree over Alice Terry. I think that THE BIG PARADE has a better supporting cast overall.

Excellent, we've now established that both you and Donna are allowed your opinions.

Doesn't address the issue of why no one anywhere has released FOUR HORSEMEN ON DVD, if it is Public Domain???

They are withholding this dvd release just to irritate you.

[Gagman 66]

Rudyfan, Fred,

I had wondered if the re-release might have potentially effected copyright status? In particular, if the re-issue print was the one that survived and the original did not? And that is probably the case here.

All I can say is that on another board recently, we had a discussion on Rex Ingram where some people actually felt that MARE NOSTRUM was a better film than THE FOUR HORSEMEN OF THE APOCALYPSE was. I didn't agree with that, and I'm quite sure that neither of you do either. Personally, I found MARE NOSTRUM rather dull and slow myself, but given an improved score I might have seen the film differently. That being said, You are the first two people I have ever heard say that they felt FOUR HORSEMEN was better than THE BIG PARADE though. As for MARE NOSTRUM, I think I prefer the surviving 49 minutes of Victor Seastrom's CONFESSIONS OF A QUEEN myself. It would be nice of the rest of the movie were found. Alice Terry looks much prettier than in NOSTRUM, and I think I even prefer Louis Stone and John Bowers for that matter, to Antonio Moreno. I've always found him rather a Bore. So what are your impressions of MARE NOSTRUM?

[Tracy]

Hey Gagman,

Not to pile on you, but I have to chime in to make it 3. I, too, prefer the Four Horseman over The Big Parade. I have the Laserdisc versions of both, I am not sure if The Big Parade LD has the Carl Davis score, but The Four Horseman LD is the exact print and score that was shown Tuesday at the Academy.

It was truly wonderful to mingle with everyone at the reception prior to the screening, I was pleased that Donna got a big "bravo" round of support for her new book Rudolph Valentino - Silent Idol from none other than Kevin Brownlow in his opening remarks! (I am delighted to be reading/hearing from everyone how they love her book)

I had seen Four Horseman twice before on the big screen but nothing compared to Tuesday nights presentation. Magnificent! Thank you to Randy Haberkamp, Kevin Brownlow, & Patrick. Your hard work was very much appreciated.

Tracy

www.valentinoforever.com

[rollot24]

I'm going to hate myself for this, here we go again on copyrights;

Four Horsemen is from 1921 which should mean it's PD now. So I'm guessing the Brownlow/Davis version is tied up because of music etc and there just isn't enough worldwide $$$ interest in releasing it to DVD?

Am I close?

[rudyfan]

It's been so long since I saw it (it was on TCM) I can't opine on Mare Nostrum. I plan on suggesting it for the SF Silent Film Fest next year and I will hope it may get on the docket for them.

[Harlett O'Dowd]

It's been so long since I saw it (it was on TCM) I can't opine on Mare Nostrum. I plan on suggesting it for the SF Silent Film Fest next year and I will hope it may get on the docket for them.

FWIW, I enjoyed it very much when it played Cinecon a few years ago - less so when TCM has run it. Ditto The Chess Player. Some movies just *have* to be seen on the big screen to get the full impact.

The 4 Horsemen screening at Cinecon (eeek!) 15 years ago remains one of my all-time favorite movie-going experiences. Sorry I couldn't be there the other night to see it again as it should be seen.

[Gagman 66]

If THE FOUR HORSEMEN OF THE APOCALYPSE is really Public-Domain, why has there been no release from Kino, Image, even Flicker Alley or at least somebody with any score? Doesn't have to be Carl Davis. The Thames version of THE EAGLE also hasn't been released on DVD either. Re-mastered even more recently by Photoplay from the original camera negative, It is a huge upgrade over the available Killiam version from Kino.

I've been trying to get a TCM premier of the Photoplay THE EAGLE, which should be allot easier for them to show than either WINGS or THE WEDDING MARCH as there are no ties to Paramount of any kind. As a United Artist Silent THE EAGLE is Public-Domain I would think?

[Harlett O'Dowd]

If THE FOUR HORSEMEN OF THE APOCALYPSE is really Public-Domain, why has there been no release from Kino, Image, even Flicker Alley or at least somebody with any score?

um ... it has ... the Delta DVD you mentioned earlier.

I'm sure there's a very good financial reason why the Photoplay/Davis edition has not been released on DVD.

I would expect that Warners(?) who released the laser have some hold over it being released in this country in any other format by another outfit.

why they have not yet let it go the way of the press-on-demand route I can't say. Perhaps someone is hoping the economy will improve and/or the financials surrounding DVD/blue-ray will improve to warrant the chance they would need to take on a larger-scaled release strategy.

[Harlett O'Dowd]

If THE FOUR HORSEMEN OF THE APOCALYPSE is really Public-Domain, why has there been no release from Kino, Image, even Flicker Alley or at least somebody with any score?

um ... it has ... the Delta DVD you mentioned earlier.

I'm sure there's a very good financial reason why the Photoplay/Davis edition has not been released on DVD.

I would expect that Warners(?) who released the laser have some hold over it being released in this country in any other format by another outfit.

why they have not yet let it go the way of the press-on-demand route I can't say. Perhaps someone is hoping the economy will improve and/or the financials surrounding DVD/blue-ray will improve to warrant the chance they would need to take on a larger-scaled release strategy.

... or maybe Fred is right and someone at Warners hates you and is holding it and BIG PARADE up just to p*ss you off.

[rogerskarsten]

Why are we pitting FOUR HORSEMEN and BIG PARADE against each other in a face-to-face showdown?

Apart from the fact that both films include the Great War (to varying degrees) as their setting, I don't see a lot in common between them.

FOUR HORSEMEN is recognized as one of the all-time great anti-war films. Ingram's message is explicit and still quite powerful (the rolling field of crosses at the end is one of my all-time favorite cinematic images). Apart from that, it is also an ensemble piece, the story of a family, and a melodrama involving a soapy love triangle.

BIG PARADE is more concerned with the life of its main protagonist as he experiences camaraderie with his fellow soldiers in a foreign land, falls in love with a local girl, and comes of age amid the realities of war. I wouldn't say that the film glamorizes the experience of war, but I also wouldn't characterize it as an anti-war film in the same way that Ingram's film is committed to that idea.

Everyone is certainly entitled to his or her own preferences regarding favorite films, but unless the comparison is based on adaptations of the same source material, I don't know how a fair comparison can be made. FOUR HORSEMEN and BIG PARADE (along with many others from that era that look back on the Great War) are each fine films in their own right.

~Roger

[Harlett O'Dowd]

Everyone is certainly entitled to his or her own preferences regarding favorite films, but unless the comparison is based on adaptations of the same source material, I don't know how a fair comparison can be made. FOUR HORSEMEN and BIG PARADE (along with many others from that era that look back on the Great War) are each fine films in their own right.

~Roger

I also like both films very much and see them as tasty apples and oranges.

But I do see both as anti-war. 4 Horsemen as a grand, soapy melodrama and Big Parade as a film that starts off as a comedy so it can sucker-punch you when the battle scenes actually start.

[Frederica]

Everyone is certainly entitled to his or her own preferences regarding favorite films, but unless the comparison is based on adaptations of the same source material, I don't know how a fair comparison can be made. FOUR HORSEMEN and BIG PARADE (along with many others from that era that look back on the Great War) are each fine films in their own right.

~Roger

I'd agree with you, I think they're both fine films and I'm already on record as disliking the geek tendency toward ranking films (and comedians). I just happen to prefer Four Horsemen to The Big Parade. This is not a negotiable point. We were originally talking about Tuesday's Academy showing of Photoplay's Four Horsemen, which honestly was one of the best movie-going experiences of my life. That conversation morphed into a strangely familiar complaint about why some films are not available on dvd. 'Tis a puzzlement.

[Harold Aherne]

If THE FOUR HORSEMEN OF THE APOCALYPSE is really Public-Domain, why has there been no release from Kino, Image, even Flicker Alley or at least somebody with any score?

The silents that usually get released through smaller PD distributors are those that have collectors' prints floating around--Caligari, Nosferatu, The General and the like. I don't know if Four Horsemen was ever distributed that way, but if not then the only option would be to run a DVD off the laserdisc or a TCM showing and that could cause problems even if the copyright is no longer in force. Image, Kino and Flicker Alley either release PD material or properly license copyrighted properties from other sources--and Warners evidently doesn't farm out its holdings (Bardelys was an unusual exception).

As a United Artist Silent THE EAGLE is public domain I would think?

I don't have the Film Superlist nearby so I don't know about The Eagle, but all the Samuel Goldwyn UA silents were renewed along with My Best Girl and probably more. It all depends if the original company or a successor was in business 28 years later and was interested in renewing.

-Harold

[Brooksie]

If THE FOUR HORSEMEN OF THE APOCALYPSE is really Public-Domain, why has there been no release from Kino, Image, even Flicker Alley or at least somebody with any score?

It's the 80th anniversary next year ... perhaps somebody (anybody) will have the foresight to release a decent commemorative copy. Perhaps an Academy screening was even intended to drum up early interest in said release? Well, we can dream.

I'm madly envious, by the way - never seen it on the big screen. And for five measly smackers, no less!

[Gagman 66]

Roger,

FOUR HORSEMEN vs. THE BIG PARADE, seemed like a rather odd comparison to me too. Completely out of left field. Hey, I didn't bring it up. At least the MARE NOSTRUM equation has some plausible relevance. Both films were Directed by Rex Ingram, and Alice Terry is one of the Stars.

Harold,

OK, that conflicts with what I had previously been told regarding United Artists Silents. Mainly that surviving titles with very few exceptions were considered Public-Domain.

Here's a problem you can't even vote for THE FOUR HORSEMEN OF THE APOCALYPSE for a DVD Release on TCM Movie Data Base, because the link to Movies Unlimited already lists the Delta Entertainment DVD-R version. For THE EAGLE your prohibited from voting for the Photoplay restoration due to the Kino DVD of the Killiam Shows version.

[Rodney]

Roger,

FOUR HORSEMEN vs. THE BIG PARADE, seemed like a rather odd comparison to me too. Completely out of left field. Hey, I didn't bring it up. At least the MARE NOSTRUM equation has some plausible relevance. Both films were Directed by Rex Ingram, and Alice Terry is one of the Stars.

Harold,

OK, that conflicts with what I had previously been told regarding United Artists Silents. Mainly that surviving titles with very few exceptions were considered Public-Domain.

There's a 16mm print of Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse at Film Center Denver. As a 1921 film, anyone can rent and show it; there's no licensing. And I'm pretty sure anyone who wanted to could talk to Film Center Denver and make a deal and put it out on DVD. The problem -- and I hesitate to call it that -- with the Photoplay production is that it has undergone extensive restoration (relative to the older 16mm print), finding lost footage (including that tracking shot of the villagers about to be shot, and the colored sunrise footage towards the end), and it was exquisitely tinted, and these restorations and tints are quite rightly owned as a new copyrighted work by Photoplay Productions.

Very early in my association with David Shepard, I actually asked if he'd thought about releasing Four Horsemen (it was one of our best scores at that time). He said Photoplay had the best material, and it would be better for the film if we leave it to them.

I first scored and performed the film to the 16mm print before I'd even heard of Carl Davis. I've since played twice for the Brownlow restoration, and I've watched it on video back in the day when you could get it. It's effective in both formats, but David is right, and I prefer the latter. Showing it with variable speed must be a pain, but the tango really does go too fast at 24 fps.

I'm much more familiar with Four Horsemen, of course, having spent a lot of time with it, and I've only seen The Big Parade once, though it was the recent restoration with excellent piano accompaniment by Gabriel Thibaudeau. And I also fall into the Four Horsemen camp. I think it is a more audacious film, the supernatural stuff, that I usually don't care for, actually works for me in a magic-realism sort of way, and to me, Valentino is more moving in his role. That scene with his father on the eve of the battle gets me every time.

[azjazzman]

It's the 80th anniversary next year ... perhaps somebody (anybody) will have the foresight to release a decent commemorative copy. Perhaps an Academy screening was even intended to drum up early interest in said release? Well, we can dream.

Since George Feltenstein practically invented the Special Anniversary Edition and as I understand it, it would be Warner's that would do it, perhaps this will happen. I believe it is the 90th anniversary, though.