Questionable IMDB credits

Harold Aherne · Post by **Harold Aherne** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:12 pm

Incorrect credits (on the IMDB and in publications) are a particular minefield when two or more actors share the same name, and I've found a few examples of implausibly attributed roles in some IMDB filmographies. Perhaps we can hash them out here and Nitratevillains who contribute to the IMDB can encourage their correction:

Frank Morgan: he is credited in a 1935 British film called Lazybones, released in June of that year. The role, however, is 13th billed in the IMDB cast list and it seems odd that someone of his stature would cross the Atlantic to appear in such a small role in a quota picture. Furthermore, he was in front of the cameras in Hollywood almost constantly during late 1934 and 1935; per the filming dates given in the AFI catalogue, the only time when he didn't have a project at MGM or on loan-out was around March of '35--which would give him enough time to travel and finish his part, but for the reasons I mentioned earlier I still have reservations about his actual appearance in Lazybones. No article that I've found from the time mentions him travelling to Britain.

Jacqueline Logan: after 43 years of inactivity on the screen, the IMDB places her in a 1974 British film called Secrets of a Door-to-Door Salesman or Naughty Wives. Perhaps this isn't so implausible, as her last screen work before this credit was in a number of UK films in 1930-31, one of which she directed and wrote. Secrets..., however, looks to be a sex comedy if the IMDB keywords are any indication, and the subject matter seems to be at odds with Miss Logan's very conservative politics. Is this really her, or someone else?

Lois Moran: she is credited with a small part in the 1974 German film Alice in den Städten , but Richard Buller's biography of Miss Moran confirms that it featured an entirely different actress of the same name (p. 303).

Pat O'Brien: the IMDB places him in 1931's Honor Among Lovers, but the AFI catalogue entry states the actor in question is Pat J. O'Brien (whose silent roles have sometimes been mistakenly appended to the later Pat's filmography)

Others?

-Harold

George O'Brien · Post by **George O'Brien** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:43 pm

There are so many. Where to start?

Well, two immeadiately come to mind. Lewis Milestone's last silent, "Betrayal"(1929) is listed as Emil Jannings' first American film. It was actually Jannings' last.

George Walsh who retired from acting in the 30's, suddenly appears in "Remember My Name"(1978). There is a George Walsh in that film, but it's not him.

Tintin · Post by **Tintin** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:15 pm

The American and English Charles Farrell's always have their credits mixed up - I'm still not quite sure it's been straightened out.

Brooksie · Post by **Brooksie** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:09 pm

There doesn't seem to be much in the way of quality control. I recall looking up one silent actress, Jessica Harcourt, to find her also listed as a makeup artist in a film in the 1990s. It would be fairly obvious that they're not the same person.

IMDb's method of assessment is not particularly transparent either (I've submitted several verifiable clarifications/corrections and never seen them turn up on the page). It would be interesting to see whether a Wiki format would be more effective.

Post by **silentfilm** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:14 pm

We have discusses this before here. I am a contributor and sometimes try to fix these problems. Sometimes they go through, sometimes they don't. I think that the problem is that they don't footnote the source of the information (probably due to copyright concerns). But you can't tell me that contributors did not get the filmographies out of reference books and biographies and enter then directly into the IMDB.

I use vintage sources whenever possible.

boblipton · Post by **boblipton** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:52 pm

I also try to make corrections and I can tell you that it's a lot easier to add something than to fix something. Working off a Looser than Loose collection, I added some credits in one move and have tried to fix the listing for Lupe Velez in Charley Chase's WHAT WOMEN DID FOR ME from bit part to "The Dean's Daughter, Nelly" just as the title with her name listed shows. A week later the additions have gone through but the correction to the Velez listing is still languishing.

I'll keep on chopping away, as I do on the Doctor Who wiki where one of the editors keeps telling me to keep my American spelling out of their British wiki. Too bad he doesn't know how to spell about 30% of his words, nor seem to know where a period goes and where a comma.

Bob

moviepas · Post by **moviepas** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:13 am

In the early days, after Amazon took over the failing database, I tried to add a few corrections but were knocked back. Such was a couple of wartime German films(forget the names now). They were never altered. I have database material from a series of books compiled from censor records etc and I differed. The only year I don't have of the German klangfilms(1929-45, talkies) is 1932. This was because the 1932 book came later and although I had two copies and two sets of all the others, I had a fire and lost much paper material stored. The material was lost to me forever, I thought. When my sister died a few years ago(about 2005) I found one of the sets still in its postage box, clean but a little carbon on the box in her garage with more of my stuff. The 1932 book was not placed in that box when I got it. The other set which I recall doing that was lost in the fire for sure. Recently in a shed at home I found a copy I got locally of Curt Reis's book of that period(in German film) in hardback that I thought was lost also & expensive. It was in a garden shed at home(I didn't put it there) at the top of a small box & the rats & mice had not attacked this box as it did others. But that book does have some wrong facts but good pictures.

Penfold · Post by **Penfold** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:19 am

I have Lazybones on tape; it's almost certainly a different Frank Morgan, but I'll check anyway.....

Frederica · Post by **Frederica** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:03 am

silentfilm wrote:We have discusses this before here. I am a contributor and sometimes try to fix these problems. Sometimes they go through, sometimes they don't. I think that the problem is that they don't footnote the source of the information (probably due to copyright concerns). But you can't tell me that contributors did not get the filmographies out of reference books and biographies and enter then directly into the IMDB.

I use vintage sources whenever possible.

Both imdb and wikipedia seem to view print sources as if they are handed down from Mt. Olympus (and neither has a BS-ometer). If it appears in a book, it must be right. Yikes.

drednm · Post by **drednm** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:10 am

I've had maybe a 50% success rate in adding or correcting credits. Why some go through and some don't I have no idea.

The TCM database is even worse.

Eric Cohen · Post by **Eric Cohen** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:00 pm

William Boyd!
IMDB credits for "Stage" Boyd look complete, but not so for "as Bill"-soon-to-be-Hoppy. Last week I submitted 8 corrections for RKO titles, incl. Carnival Boat, that don't list him in the credits. He's the top-billed star in these movies. I got the character names from TCM. The filmography there makes no distinction between the two Boyds.

sepiatone · Post by **sepiatone** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:51 am

In general I love IMDb, I've made a lot of corrections over the years so hopefully it's doing some good.
Like George O'Brien said, "where do we start".

MARGARET DALE
I 've tried my darndest to correct the filmography of Margaret Dale(1876-1972), who was Mrs. Noel Travers in Arliss's 1921 DISRAELI and who had played the part on Broadway for 7 years with Arliss , 1911-17. On IMDb she is given credit for roles done on 1950s British television though she retired from Broadway plays in 1948 after a fifty year career. Her only talkie was Edward G. Robinson's THE MAN WITH TWO FACES(1934). So obviously there were other Margaret Dales acting in the 50s, one of whom is the recently deceased English dancer(2010) of that name. IMDb corrected some of it, the film part, but still gives her credit for television roles she couldn't have been in as the roles were younger women roles and Miss Dale would've been approaching 80 by that time. I did learn one thing that Margaret Dale may have appeared in a 1939 experimental television broadcast.

with Arliss in Disraeli

at the beginning of her career in the 1890s(*note: pendant is good luck charm not a swastika)
http://digital.library.louisville.edu/c ... OX=1&REC=9

THE SMUGGLERS(1916)
This film starred Donald Brian, one his first forays into silent films after being a musical star on Broadway. His female costar is Alma Tell but IMDb had given credit to her sister Olive Tell whose film career didn't begin until 1917. It has been corrected.

sepiatone · Post by **sepiatone** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:10 am

SHERLOCK HOLMES, 1922(Kino dvd), Walter Kingsford(1881-1958)

poor Walter Kingsford is not given credit anywhere for his role in Sherlock Holmes(1922) and I doubt if this film had not been reassembled for viewing, his performance would never have been remembered and lost to the ages. Kingsford plays the rifleman in a short but unforgettable scene in this movie when Hedda Hopper signals him he aims his rifle at Dr. Watson's townhouse. I had remembered Kingsford from a role he played 20 years later as an Admiral opposite Rosalind Russell in FLIGHT FOR FREEDOM(1943), based on the Amelia Earhart tragedy. When I first viewed Sherlock Holmes and the scene he's in , I immediately recognized him, except his name, though he is twenty years younger with a thick coating of silent film villain makeup. Since then I compared with other photos of him on Flickr, GoogleImages. Made my chest stick out like a peacock that I put this little trivia together.

George O'Brien · Post by **George O'Brien** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:35 am

Another egregious one:

In IMDB's filmography for one of my favorite actors, Herbert Marshall, he is listed as the narrator of 1945's "The Picture of Dorian Gray".

No, anyone with ears can tell you that that film is narrated by Cedric Hardwicke. Much as I love Marshall, I thnk Hardwicke's voice suits that film perfectly.

I have written IMDB several times to please give Cedric his due, but - ZIPPO.

Tommie Hicks · Post by **Tommie Hicks** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:26 am

I never thought I'd live to say this, but as far as silent comedy goes, the IMDB is slowly shaping up. I was contacted by a chap a couple of years ago who was associated with the IMDB for information on some silent comedies and he earnestly tried to get all of the info right and communicated to me a desire to do so. There are still some mistakes and omissions, but nothing like ten years ago. I have been trying for years to find titles for Billy West's C.B.C. shorts and his Joan Films Sales shorts only to find one listed on the IMDB a couple of months ago, although its looking like West's Joan Films Sales shorts were released by C.B.C. instead of being two differernt series by different studios.

Maybe in another ten years, all of the Fox silent comedy shorts will have their stars identified and all of the silent comedy Universal shorts will have confirmed release dates.

quietone · Post by **quietone** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:03 pm

I managed to get them to delete the IBDB credits (Internet Broadway Database) listed under "Other Works) for a musical performer George O'Brien from George O'Brien (of Sunrise etc. fame) It took me three tries, but persistence finally paid off.

Anyone looking at this site would have thought that in addition to an busy 1920's career in the silent movies, George was also in the Broadway choruses of Kitty's Kisses and Fifty Million Frenchman (among others)!!!

I was also able to get them to eliminate the link to a video of Medal of Honor winner George O'Brien (from the Korean War) getting the Medal of Honor from President Eisenhower!

mndean · Post by **mndean** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:35 pm

Among other IMDb problems, the release dates they show for some films are incorrect. I've long stopped bothering to correct all errors I find, as I was one of the early contributors who lost interest in helping when they decided to "monetize" the contributions others like me made. There are numerous errors still in early sound films, but now I only bother with the more egregious ones I find.

Nick_M · Post by **Nick_M** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:29 pm

Their search engine is no better. When I went to look up Hollywood (1923) today, using the search term, "hollywood", the first result was Zac Efron, followed by about 100 other people having some name as "Hollywood." Under exact title matches (at the bottom of the page), the '37 A Star is Born is first, because its SWEDISH title is "Hollywood." Grrr....

Tommie Hicks · Post by **Tommie Hicks** » Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:46 am

I have put in titles with years in their search engine and yet they still give me a "list" instead of going directly to the film. The list they give will always have some film you can order from Amazon regardless of the film's pertinence to your search. I realize they have to do this to survive.

sepiatone · Post by **sepiatone** » Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:08 pm

quietone wrote:I managed to get them to delete the IBDB credits (Internet Broadway Database) listed under "Other Works) for a musical performer George O'Brien from George O'Brien (of Sunrise etc. fame) It took me three tries, but persistence finally paid off.

Anyone looking at this site would have thought that in addition to an busy 1920's career in the silent movies, George was also in the Broadway choruses of Kitty's Kisses and Fifty Million Frenchman (among others)!!!

I was also able to get them to eliminate the link to a video of Medal of Honor winner George O'Brien (from the Korean War) getting the Medal of Honor from President Eisenhower!

If you did get IBDb to eliminate, they have put it back. You have to be careful. "George O'Brien" is a common name, just put in a search at Findagrave(non-famous section) and see how many people with that name show up. The 20s Fox actor is there and usually will show up in the famous-section. There obviously was a musical performer named George O'Brien. Other actors with the same name such as the two William Boyds can be cleverly differentiated by adding for the Broadway performer who appeared in films, [William "Stage" Boyd].

quietone · Post by **quietone** » Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:31 pm

If you did get IBDb to eliminate, they have put it back. You have to be careful. "George O'Brien" is a common name, just put in a search at Findagrave(non-famous section) and see how many people with that name show up. The 20s Fox actor is there and usually will show up in the famous-section. There obviously was a musical performer named George O'Brien.

I got them(IMDB, not IBDB) to delete the Broadway performer George O'Brien's (IBDB)credits FROM the movie actor George O'Brien's IMDB credits. There is no IMDB page for the Broadway performer. Why should George O'Brien (movie actor) have listed as "other work" work he did not do?

If you want to know what sort of credits I am talking about look at this page for Spencer Tracy http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000075/otherworks - they had a page like that for George O'Brien - listing the musical performer's credits.

Now do you get it?

I have never contacted the IBDB at all!

Richard Finegan · Post by **Richard Finegan** » Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:33 am

The IMDb states that this film is lost, then at the top of the page they provide a link to view it online:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0030692/combined

How nice of them! Now, can they do that for all other lost films?

countryslicker · Post by **countryslicker** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:11 pm

I've just looked up IMDb's entry on "Make Mine Laughs" (RKO 1949) because it was screened here on free-to-air TV a few days ago.

Their entry states: "After problems with the copyright of some of the material used in the movie, RKO removed the movie from General release and shelved it".

After further googling, I read (at Answers.com) that "this film was withdrawn from distribution after Ray Bolger and Jack Haley brought suit against RKO for unauthorized use of clips from Bolger's boxing pantomime in Four Jacks and Jill (1944) and Haley's "Who Killed Vaudeville?" number from George White's Scandals (1945)".

Bit of a mystery to me. The film is obviously still available and still being distributed (in this country anyway), and the Ray Bolger and Jack Haley numbers are intact in the TV version I've just seen.

Maybe no web film data bases should be totally relied upon for accuracy.

Hal Erickson · Post by **Hal Erickson** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:23 pm

countryslicker wrote:I've just looked up IMDb's entry on "Make Mine Laughs" (RKO 1949) because it was screened here on free-to-air TV a few days ago.

Their entry states: "After problems with the copyright of some of the material used in the movie, RKO removed the movie from General release and shelved it".

After further googling, I read (at Answers.com) that "this film was withdrawn from distribution after Ray Bolger and Jack Haley brought suit against RKO for unauthorized use of clips from Bolger's boxing pantomime in Four Jacks and Jill (1944) and Haley's "Who Killed Vaudeville?" number from George White's Scandals (1945)".

Bit of a mystery to me. The film is obviously still available and still being distributed (in this country anyway), and the Ray Bolger and Jack Haley numbers are intact in the TV version I've just seen.

Maybe no web film data bases should be totally relied upon for accuracy.

Maybe this refers to theatrical distribution. MAKE MINE LAUGHS has been available to TV for over five decades. I first saw the C&C print in 1965.
Both the Bolger and Haley sequences were intact (it was the first time I'd seen either of them).

Frederica · Post by **Frederica** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:08 pm

Reviving this thread for another questionable imdb credit...a really, really questionable credit: imdb has both Nita Naldi and Rudolph Valentino credited for The Hooded Falcon. I guess we should be thankful they don't list every film never made, talk about cumbersome.

Mind you, I am enjoying the heck out of it.

Post by **silentfilm** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:21 pm

Frederica wrote:Reviving this thread for another questionable imdb credit...a really, really questionable credit: imdb has both Nita Naldi and Rudolph Valentino credited for The Hooded Falcon. I guess we should be thankful they don't list every film never made, talk about cumbersome.

Mind you, I am enjoying the heck out of it.

It's already rated an 8.5 with five votes!

Frederica · Post by **Frederica** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:37 pm

silentfilm wrote:
Frederica wrote:Reviving this thread for another questionable imdb credit...a really, really questionable credit: imdb has both Nita Naldi and Rudolph Valentino credited for The Hooded Falcon. I guess we should be thankful they don't list every film never made, talk about cumbersome.

Mind you, I am enjoying the heck out of it.
It's already rated an 8.5 with five votes!

Wow, whipped cream on top of the treat.

Harlett O'Dowd · Post by **Harlett O'Dowd** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:12 pm

but ... but ... but

where's MY IMDB listing? There are scores of films I've never made!

Mitch Farish · Post by **Mitch Farish** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:23 pm

drednm wrote:I've had maybe a 50% success rate in adding or correcting credits. Why some go through and some don't I have no idea.

The TCM database is even worse.

I found that out with Rex Ingram. You may already have noticed that when you search Rex Ingram in the TCM database, you get the picture of the African-American actor, and a blurb about his career. But the credits listed are those of the Irish-American director. I've tried several times to contact TCM, but did not get so much as an acknowledgement that they received the email.

Frederica · Post by **Frederica** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:31 pm

Harlett O'Dowd wrote:but ... but ... but

where's MY IMDB listing? There are scores of films I've never made!

And then there was that hit mid-80s television series you never made. The one with the catchy theme song.

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