C. Davis score on Our Hospitality Kino Blu-Ray out of sync

[Jimmy Shannon]

EDIT: In light of Jonathan's confirmation below, I've removed the question mark from the thread title. The Thames version of Our Hospitality, which was the version Carl Davis composed this score for originally, is synced properly in its release, putting the beats I detail in my examples below in the places I figured they ought to be. There's no question now - the Carl Davis score on the Blu Ray for Our Hospitality is, in many places in the film, not in sync. This means we still don't have a high quality release of this film with proper presentation of picture and score available, and likely will not until Kino rectifies this situation.

I phrased it as a question in case somebody can show me differently, but I believe there's little doubt - the Carl Davis score on the Kino Blu-Ray edition of Buster Keaton's magnificent "Our Hospitality" is out of sync. The music seems as if it "drifts" from sync with the film occasionally, often for long periods of time, before they fix it when an obvious effect such as a gunshot demands it. Then it starts drifting again. The longer the drift, the more out of sync it gets. The music precedes the beats it is supposed to be supporting, often by quite a bit, which has the effect of telegraphing the beats and changes before you see them, which really takes the life out of some of the scenes in the movie. A more detailed look at this follows...

Take the blowing up of the dam sequence... The musical "explosion" which is supposed to signify the explosion that destroys the dam takes place about three seconds before it actually happens on screen. This 2 or 3 second sync problem continues with each "event cue" or shift in the music, which is supposed to be coinciding with shifts in the scene. Take a look at the long shot of the dam bursting... while water is rushing toward us we hear a musical transition to a more placid "Buster fishing" theme about two or three seconds before it cuts to Buster placidly fishing.. After Buster catches the tiny fish and hooks it for bait, he sits down and puts his hat on... we then get the "water dangerously gathering" musical cue well before it cuts to the actual water gathering dangerously on the rocks above. This musical shift occurring while Buster innocently adjusts himself on the rocks makes no sense with what we're seeing, but it would if shifted back to where it's supposed to be. Instead it just has the effect of telling us something is going to happen before it actually does, which is obviously not the intent with this scene. Next notice a "piano tinkle" that occurs, where a couple of seconds later the first bit of water spills over the edge, which was obviously what this tinkle was supposed to represent. Most obviously, Buster is sitting under the falls holding the umbrella with water falling on him, and then we get a big burst in intensity in the music, even though nothing has really happened on screen to justify it. Then, a couple of seconds later we see the shot of the torrent bursting over the edge of the falls and descending on Buster - this was supposed to be the source of the big burst of music that happened seconds before. Later, the "feud music" begins three seconds or so before the brothers actually appear on screen, which ruins the "Buster is hidden by the waterfall" joke as your mind interprets the music before seeing the guys, ruining the timing of the gag. All this clearly unintentional musical telegraphing really hurts the effectiveness of the beats of this scene.

Later, notice when Buster gets out of the water, right before he stands up, there is a "ploppish" little blip of a cue that doesn't seem to work with anything you're seeing - until a couple of seconds later when you see the fish jump out of the water, which is the event that this cue apparently is supposed to be timed to. Then you hear another burst of intensity in the score, apparently for no reason, and only a few seconds after this burst do you see Buster fall back into the water. The burst in intensity, of course, was supposed to coincide with his fall. Instead, all it does now is tell you something big is about to happen right before it does, which blunts the joke by robbing it of its surprise.

In the next scene, you get some menacing "feud" music as the father and brothers talk about missing Buster, which then changes to a more light-hearted "innocent Buster" theme... BEFORE innocent Buster appears on screen. It then cuts to him, seconds after his theme, which was obviously supposed to coincide with his appearance. Also look at Buster opening the door to the rain after dinner... the "tinkling" music denoting the rain occurs before the rain is seen on screen, and the little "dink" comic beat when Buster tips his hat as he goes up the stairs occurs just before he actually does the action, when it is obviously intended to coincide exactly with his hat tip as a little musical punctuation mark to end the scene (and the scene would work much better if it did, instead it's just early enough to sap the moment a bit). These last few examples, the rain and the hat tip, are much closer to sync than the ones before at the dam, but they are still not correctly synced up.

In this middle section of the film specifically, this is very annoying because the music constantly "anticipates" the drama on screen, robbing the surprises, beat changes and flow of their full effect... you instantly know some beat is going to happen right before it does, which starts to produce an incongruous feeling. It's extremely distracting and took me out of the film completely during the parts where it was at its worst. I've seen other Carl Davis scores recently which I loved, from The Iron Mask, The General, and other films, and none of them had this problem, so I know it's not some issue of his personal style. His music enhances these films a great deal when they are properly synced up to the events, rather than strangely preceding them and thus taking the surprise of the beat away from you.

I believe there's some problem of "drift" here, because you'll notice that some of the moments are more out of sync than others. When a very specific event, such as a gunshot or something occurs on the soundtrack, Kino seems to have used that as a "marker" of sorts and made slight edits to the track to get it back into sync at those moments. You can't hear the edits, but it's no trick to cut this kind of music invisibly. So gunshots are always synced correctly, I guess because they are so obvious, but then the music seems to start drifting out of sync again. The longer time between a definitive marker like a gunshot, or, say, the waiter falling down with a tray at dinner, the greater the music seems to go out of sync.

Could this be from some kind of PAL to NTSC thing? Like maybe they took a PAL source for Davis' UK score and married it to an NTSC print of the movie and had to constantly adjust it to make it hit these very definitive markers? Obviously, they were taking a Davis score from some other presentation of this film and trying to match it to their own version, and didn't pull it off completely. Whatever they were doing, I wish they had paid as much attention to syncing the drama as they did the gunshots. Often the effect is very subtle, though it still blunts the impact of the movie by giving you that "something is just a little off" feeling. Other times, like the scene with the dam, it's very clear to anybody paying attention that things aren't lined up correctly and they simply should have spotted these things before pressing this disc. Once you notice this sync issue it's hard to "un-notice" it, making it hard to enjoy the picture. Even if you don't overtly notice it, there is no doubt some of these scenes don't play as well because of the musical telegraphing.

Unfortunately, this isn't the only time I've seen this issue. The Clubfoot orchestra score on Sherlock Jr., a score I actually like (I may be the only one), also goes out of sync on the Kino Blu-Ray. I think this is because of the new shots they added into the movie since this score was done for the original DVD, but they should've compensated with the music track so it didn't go goofy. Instead, they just let it run as is, making the score start to run ahead of the actions its referencing. You can start to detect it during the pool scene, as their "pool hits" occur just too soon (it was a feeling here, not really obvious, but I double checked with my old DVD and the points were indeed different), but by the time the end chase happens you can really tell. Big music events like Buster realizing nobody is driving the motorcycle or the "rubber band" stretch as he goes through the tug-of-war rope happen three seconds or so before the actual event, and make the score unwatchable in that scene, as the Clubfoot score is highly specific to what's going on. Kino threw this score onto the disc, obviously, without even watching to see if it still matched up to their altered picture, because there's no mistaking the sync problems here in that chase.

This wasn't an enormous loss for the Sherlock Jr. disc as the Mont Alto score is synced fine and that's a great score, too, so I didn't bother to mention it. But it's a real shame on Our Hospitality, because this otherwise wonderful presentation is compromised in a way where it's hard to enjoy it properly in parts because of distracting sync issues with the music. This movie and this score deserve better. I wish Kino would fix this, and watch for it more closely on other silent DVDs and Blu-Rays. Anytime they take a score designed from some other presentation of the film they could have these issues, as there are so many slightly different prints of silent movies out there.

This is especially urgent as some of these Blu Ray discs seem to be getting converted into the files that may be the "last word" on these movies when it comes to having them on things like Netflix streaming or other On-Demand services of the future. I don't want the only version people see of a great Keaton film in the future be one that has slightly irritating sync issues, where there should only be a wonderful score matched to a wonderful film, the way Mr. Davis intended.

[Rodney]

This wasn't an enormous loss for the Sherlock Jr. disc as the Mont Alto score is synced fine...

We, of course, were recording to the new video, while the Club Foot (and apparently Carl Davis on Our Hospitality) recorded their scores to an earlier video source. It would have been very good to have sent the revised version to the original composers for a check before releasing it, though in some of these cases, there may not have been a lot of fixes available. You can't just call in a symphony orchestra to re-record a cue three seconds faster or slower.

For the record, in the future, if you're ever re-releasing a Mont Alto score to new video while I'm still around, I'll be happy to dig up my files and do any resynchronizing necessary.

(Mont Alto scores tend not to have many sync problems because they're compiled scores that don't generally follow on-screen "hits," except in certain instances where we feel sound effects are useful, or someone plays a ukulele in close-up. Also, we tend to leave silence between certain cues which makes re-synchronizing easier. And cutting or adding a few seconds to this music is harder than it might seem -- it's easy to repeat an entire 8-bar phrase, but if you need to extend or reduce by a measure or less you end up with really odd-sounding music.)

[Jimmy Shannon]

This wasn't an enormous loss for the Sherlock Jr. disc as the Mont Alto score is synced fine...

We, of course, were recording to the new video, while the Club Foot (and apparently Carl Davis on Our Hospitality) recorded their scores to an earlier video source. It would have been very good to have sent the revised version to the original composers for a check before releasing it, though in some of these cases, there may not have been a lot of fixes available. You can't just call in a symphony orchestra to re-record a cue three seconds faster or slower.

For the record, in the future, if you're ever re-releasing a Mont Alto score to new video while I'm still around, I'll be happy to dig up my files and do any resynchronizing necessary.

(Mont Alto scores tend not to have many sync problems because they're compiled scores that don't generally follow on-screen "hits," except in certain instances where we feel sound effects are useful, or someone plays a ukulele in close-up. Also, we tend to leave silence between certain cues which makes re-synchronizing easier. And cutting or adding a few seconds to this music is harder than it might seem -- it's easy to repeat an entire 8-bar phrase, but if you need to extend or reduce by a measure or less you end up with really odd-sounding music.)

Thanks Rodney, and congratulations on your Sherlock Jr. score. I really enjoyed it.

As for Our Hospitality, it's really a shame, as the sync issues are needless and they blight the effectiveness of the movie and of Carl Davis' score. It didn't have to be that way. I understand the difficulties of cutting something like this, but with this particular score I don't think adjusting it for proper sync would've been very difficult. I'm a motion picture editor and I often cut existing film scores into what I'm doing as a temp track, before the real score gets added later. I could've properly synced this score on an Avid in a day, and nobody, probably not even Carl Davis, would've ever known that I did anything. But the film would be in sync and would work much better than it does now.

This could've been addressed very easily on one end or the other, and they obviously did do some cutting to sync up gunshots and sound effects throughout the score, so it wasn't as if they were averse to syncing where it was very obvious. Their music edits are invisible. The problem is they were not as diligent to syncing up other parts of the score, probably because they just weren't paying enough attention to realize how out of sync it was at times. A gunshot effect can't be missed, but the other stuff wasn't as obvious and wasn't detected, even though it has a pretty dramatic impact on how the film plays. It stuck out to me like a sore thumb on the very first viewing, starting in earnest at that scene at the dam, where it's so blatant, and then continuing in varying degrees throughout the rest of the film.

I don't think people like us, who have seen Our Hospitality several times over the years can really appreciate just how much damage an issue like this can do to the enjoyment of a film, because we already know the film and what to expect, are used to things, etc. But I guarantee you if you played this film to a new audience, even though they wouldn't know the score was out of sync, the movie just would not play nearly as well as it should, as so many beats are sapped of their energy by musical telegraphing of the changes. Comedy is very sensitive in its timing, and knocking the legs out from under moments like this can really produce a mild "halting" effect in the flow for an audience which is hard to recover from. Conversely, if this score was just synced correctly, any "halting" would be removed and the film would play twice as well as it does now.

I really hope this issue is fixed before this becomes the "forever" version of the movie. I'd pay for the disc again to have this movie with the Carl Davis score properly attached. As for now, I have to listen to the other score, which I don't like nearly as well.

[Gagman 66]

Jimmy Shannon,

Blast I hate that! I would think that they would try better to get this right. Carl Davis score to THE GENERAL is also out of sync. So are his Lloyd scores to SAFETY LAST, THE KID BROTHER, and SPEEDY slightly. In-fact, the old Thames presentation of SPEEDY had an extra scene with the dog jumping on the back of the Balloon vendor that is not even in the 2002 Trust restoration. There was allot of discontent about the sync issues, especially on SAFETY LAST when the New-Line box set was released in 2005. Even before that as the three previous years that it had aired on TCM. The Trust claimed the sync issues would be improved, they were some. But they did not match the old Thames versions.

[Jimmy Shannon]

Jimmy Shannon,

Blast I hate that! I would think that they would try better to get this right. Carl Davis score to THE GENERAL is also out of sync. So are his Lloyd scores to SAFETY LAST, THE KID BROTHER, and SPEEDY slightly. In-fact, the old Thames presentation of SPEEDY had an extra scene with the dog jumping on the back of the Balloon vendor that is not even in the 2002 Trust restoration. There was allot of discontent about the sync issues, especially on SAFETY LAST when the New-Line box set was released in 2005. Even before that as the three previous years that it had aired on TCM. The Trust claimed the sync issues would be improved, they were some. But they did not match the old Thames versions.

Well the sync wasn't off enough to be noticeable to me on a viewing of those other films, which I have recently seen. That just means the sync issues with Our Hospitality are far worse, because especially in the middle section of the film, it is unmistakable. Sadly, it makes the Davis score unwatchable for me. Too bad, since they fixed it in places... they could have easily fixed it the whole way. Any way to get the Thames versions on DVD?

[Gagman 66]

Not so at all. The music from Carl's 1989 score on the opening credits of SAFETY LAST for example is way, way off. It is presented much differently, and far less effectively than it had been with the original Thames version on VHS. In the Thames edition the Orchestra kicks into high gear as the the title credit splashes across the screen. On the New-Line DVD, you don't really hear the main-title until you see the cast list. Ouch!

If you haven't seen the old Thames releases, (there were only 5 of the 11 Lloyd Silent features) you probably wouldn't know about this. For those of us who had seen them, we couldn't understand why this couldn't be corrected. GIRL SHY and HOT WATER were given completely different scores by Robert Israel. I love Robert's work, but I was so used to Jim Parker and Adrian Johnston's score respectively, that I never really warmed to the Israel scores for either movie.

[Jimmy Shannon]

Not so at all. The music from Carl's 1989 score on the opening credits of SAFETY LAST for example is way, way off. It is presented much differently, and far less effectively than it had been with the original Thames version on VHS. In the Thames edition the Orchestra kicks into high gear until the the title credit splashes across the screen. On the New-Line DVD, you don't really here the main-title until you se the cast list. Ouch!

If you haven't seen the old Thames releases, (there were only 5 of the 11 Lloyd Silent features) you probably wouldn't know about this. For those of us who had seen them, we couldn't understand why this couldn't be corrected. GIRL SHY and HOT WATER were given completely different scores by Robert Israel. I love Robert's work, but I was so used to Jim Parker and Adrian Johnston's score respectively, that I never really warmed to the Israel scores for either movie.

That is unfortunate about the Lloyd scores, and the intent of the composer should be preserved. However, my bigger beef is that the score work in the film proper... that it work with all the "hits" and beats in the film. The Lloyd scores do that in a way that is not distracting, so I can't get too exercised about their other faults. Our Hospitality's sync issues are bad enough to actually sap the life out of the narrative, so it becomes unwatchable.

How about The Black Pirate? I just heard the Blu Ray sync is off there, too. Not sure how bad it is, though. Is it off on their DVD release, too? I want to buy the film, but not if it is out of sync and annoying to watch. I'll take lesser quality with music that doesn't distract me from the narrative over high quality but distracting any time.

[Gagman 66]

I have not seen the Blu-ray of THE BLACK PIRATE. I re-watched the DVD a couple weeks ago, and really enjoyed seeing it again. Score is by Robert Israel, but it is a reconstruction of the original 1926 score by Mortimer Wilson. Not among my favorite Silent films, but still worth having.

I don't have a Blu-ray player yet, and really not in a big hurry to get one. Now, If they put out WINGS on blu-ray or THE BIG PARADE, I'll buy one. WINGS apparently is finally being worked on by Paramount. That according to David Shepard who would know. THE BIG PARADE I haven't heard anything much about in nearly 2 years already. Frustrating. I personally think that THE BIG PARADE could be coming out for the second time in the restored version. The older Thames edition that TCM still airs, should have been released back in the early part of the last decade. At least something would have been commercially available.

[radiotelefonia]

All of these reminds me when I prepared my own home made DVD of OUR HOSPITALITY, replacing the music of the old Kino DVD with the one written by Carl Davis.

And it was out of sync too!!!!!

It would have been cheaper to issue my own mess!!!!

[Jonathan]

Any way to get the Thames versions on DVD?

The Davis/Photoplay/Thames versions of Our Hospitality and The General are included in the UK Network set The Buster Keaton Chronicles. Unfortunately, the transfers are rather soft and smudgy, reflecting I suppose the original 1980s telecines but even that doesn't account for why Our Hospitality looks even softer than my off-air VHS! And the rest of the set is worse, Steamboat Bill Jr. even being presented in a cropped widescreen print! (I bought it when first released; I don't know if the later "repackaged" edition upgrades any of the transfers.)

I checked the dam-burst sequence on the Network edition and the Davis music cues seem bang on, as you'd expect, including the little effect when the fish jumps out of the water near the end of the scene.

I hadn't noticed that the Davis score to The General was also out-of-sync on the Kino - though I do remember feeling it somehow had less impact than the many times I'd heard it before and felt digitally tweaked in some way. I've read at least two complaints that the Robert Israel score is out-of-sync on the later Kino editions, but I've never listened to that one for more than a few minutes.

As for New Line's version of Safety Last, I was too busy worrying about the soft image quality - again softer than my off-air PAL tape of the Photoplay version - to notice any problems with the sound. I wondered if that had been caused by PAL-NTSC conversion. Does anyone know if the presentation looks any sharper in the UK Optimum Lloyd set? I've yet to find anyone who owns both US and UK editions.

[Jimmy Shannon]

All of these reminds me when I prepared my own home made DVD of OUR HOSPITALITY, replacing the music of the old Kino DVD with the one written by Carl Davis.

And it was out of sync too!!!!!

It would have been cheaper to issue my own mess!!!!

In light of Jonathan's confirmation above, I'm removing the question mark from the thread title. It is confirmed now. The Kino Blu Ray score is out of sync, which means we still do not have a high quality version of this classic film available with sound and picture properly presented, and likely will not unless Kino rectifies the situation.

Is there any way we can get this fixed? As silent film fans dedicated to the preservation and proper exhibition of these works of art, surely there must be some way to make this right. After all, nobody would accept it if the score to Star Wars was off by three seconds in many places throughout the film. We shouldn't accept it here.

The most tragic part to this whole thing is that Kino obviously had the wherewithal to get the music into sync, because they continually got it there on obvious sound effects cues. They just didn't follow through and make sure it was in sync in the other parts of the film, which is really just as important for how the film plays. If you aren't going to make sure the score you license is in sync, you really ought not even bother licensing it, as the best film score not properly in sync is worse than a mediocre score properly lined up.

If fixing this is a cost issue, I'd do the work for them for free, if they'll only update the discs in a future pressing. I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd donate services and time. They don't even have to do a recall; I'd buy the disc again without complaint if it meant I'd finally have a proper version of Our Hospitality with Davis' score in a high quality presentation. I really don't want to see this be a permanent mistake, that ends up for all time in downloadable or streaming releases as "the" version of Our Hospitality, because the anticipatory music in this release does a great disservice to a classic film.

[Mike Gebert]

So, has anyone else noticed any of these problems?

[Jimmy Shannon]

So, has anyone else noticed any of these problems?

I doubt many are going to overtly notice this, particularly people who have seen Our Hospitality several times before and already know all the beats. Telegraphing music can't ruin a beat for you that you already know is coming through prior experience.

However, even if not overtly noticed it will still have a big effect on how the film plays to any viewer. Viewers who haven't seen the movie before will be particularly affected, even though they probably won't know it. What should work like gangbusters just won't go over as well as it should, as in some sections the telegraphing music gives a continual, slightly disconcerting feeling when you "hear something happen" and then, seconds later, finally see it happen. It's like an annoying guy sitting next to you through the movie constantly saying, "Oh, now something funny's going to happen here!" or "Heeeeeeeere comes Buster!" or "Oh wait, watch this!" right before each event occurs. It distances you, even if you don't realize it consciously. Comedy, of course, is based on surprises, and when many of those surprises are audibly tipped beforehand, it has a subconsciously dulling effect on the viewer. Buster deserves better.

And worse, once it is overtly noticed, it makes the film hard to watch. If anybody doubts this, just go back and look at the dam scene after reading my description above. After you've noticed it, it sticks out like a sore thumb from then on, driving you up the wall.

Beyond all that, it's just inexcusable. There's no reason this film had to be released with an out of sync score, and Kino has badly marred an otherwise very fine disc by not double checking their sync work. This makes one of their main selling points, the "Carl Davis Score!", a moot point, and actually a detriment to the movie as presented here.

[ymmv]

Has anyone contacted Kino about this issue?

[sc1957]

Has anyone contacted Kino about this issue?

Beat me to it. All of this verbiage, most of which I couldn't be bothered to read, is just whining until you take contact the people who you think are responsible.

Didn't notice a problem on my disc... too busy watching the show.

[Doug Sulpy]

Hmm.

So let me get this right... a company issues multiple discs with serious sync issues with the soundtrack, and when people point this out on a discussion board, they're "whining."

Well, I, for one, am grateful to people for pointing out this defect and saving me from having to spend money on discs that certainly seem like they would annoy the hell out of me, rather than entertain.

I look forward to reading what Kino has to say about this.

[Rodney]

So, has anyone else noticed any of these problems?

Actually, I noticed that Clubfoot's score for Sherlock Jr. was out of sync way back on my Kino videotape -- the movie-backgrounds-changing sequence is one of the trickier bits in the silent film canon to get right (it's notable that in the cue sheet, they don't even suggest that you try). On the VHS release I had, it was off by maybe a second.

I've been meaning to check it on the DVD -- and I would have noticed it being out of sync if I had and if it actually is -- but somehow I've not gotten around to it.

[Jimmy Shannon]

So, has anyone else noticed any of these problems?

Actually, I noticed that Clubfoot's score for Sherlock Jr. was out of sync way back on my Kino videotape -- the movie-backgrounds-changing sequence is one of the trickier bits in the silent film canon to get right (it's notable that in the cue sheet, they don't even suggest that you try). On the VHS release I had, it was off by maybe a second.

I've been meaning to check it on the DVD -- and I would have noticed it being out of sync if I had and if it actually is -- but somehow I've not gotten around to it.

Look at the chase at the end of the film for Clubfoot. Buster realizing he's alone on the motorcycle and the through the rope gag. The very obvious cues designed for these moments are several seconds early. The motorcycle one is particularly jarring as it is a huge sting coming from complete silence, supposed to coincide with Buster turning around into the camera with a look of horror. It's one of the most effective moments of their score (for their style) On the Blu Ray this sting occurs while literally nothing is happening on screen.

Like I said before, can't get too worked up about Sherlock Jr, as I'd be listening to your score anyway. But it is indicative of a trend with Kino's quality control of late, that may even include the Black Pirate Blu Ray, if early reports are confirmed on that one. With Our Hospitality, unfortunately there is no other nice orchestral score to listen to as an alternative on that disc.

[Jimmy Shannon]

Hmm.

So let me get this right... a company issues multiple discs with serious sync issues with the soundtrack, and when people point this out on a discussion board, they're "whining."

Well, I, for one, am grateful to people for pointing out this defect and saving me from having to spend money on discs that certainly seem like they would annoy the hell out of me, rather than entertain.

I look forward to reading what Kino has to say about this.

Thanks, Doug. I am in the same camp, as I feel one of the benefits of a board like this is in people alerting each other to the good and the bad that is out there. Not to mention helping to alert companies like Kino to problems that they might be able to fix, and possibly avoid in the future. If we didn't "whine" about these things then they would happen far more often. As people interested in preserving and promoting silent film, pointing out things like this is important.

I was very excited about this film, and was crestfallen when it started going out if sync, because I was having a great time up to that point, as I did with The General. Had I known about the sync issue I wouldn't have bought the disc either, which is why I'm holding off on The Black Pirate till I hear if it really does have an issue or not. Had somebody told me about this ahead if time I could've spent that $20 on another movie.

[Mike Gebert]

Yeah, there's alerting...

...but there's also beating it into the ground, as tends to happen here rather a lot with new releases lately. I would like to hear from other people who think this is a problem. Who have actually seen the disc.

I fear NitrateVille getting a reputation as a place where people harp on flaws endlessly and actively discourage others from supporting the releases that come out. I've been watching the Keystone discs, for instance, and I find it impossible to even contemplate what those 8 pages of densely argued complaints are about now. If Recreation is 2 fps too slow, or if they didn't use the best 16mm available from South America, I really find it hard to care when Recreation is, not to put too fine a point on it, lousy.

Jimmy has made a case, learnedly and thoroughly. I'd like to hear now from others who, based on actual experience, have their own opinion in response.

[azjazzman]

Yeah, there's alerting...

...but there's also beating it into the ground, as tends to happen here rather a lot with new releases lately. I would like to hear from other people who think this is a problem. Who have actually seen the disc.

I fear NitrateVille getting a reputation as a place where people harp on flaws endlessly and actively discourage others from supporting the releases that come out. I've been watching the Keystone discs, for instance, and I find it impossible to even contemplate what those 8 pages of densely argued complaints are about now. If Recreation is 2 fps too slow, or if they didn't use the best 16mm available from South America, I really find it hard to care when Recreation is, not to put too fine a point on it, lousy.

Jimmy has made a case, learnedly and thoroughly. I'd like to hear now from others who, based on actual experience, have their own opinion in response.

I have both the Thames edition of OUR HOSPITALITY (on LaserDisc) and the new Kino Blu Ray. I'll do an A/B comparison and report back.

In the meantime, I think your concerns are right on the money. It is a big reason I have don't participate here much any more. I don't need to be told time and time again that a DVD release that I enjoy is fatally flawed. Expressing an opinion is fine, but the relentless hammering away is worse than boring...it's annoying. It is never interesting to watch axes being ground.

[Harold Aherne]

I fear NitrateVille getting a reputation as a place where people harp on flaws endlessly and actively discourage others from supporting the releases that come out.

It could be part of the mentality that comes with being an avid DVD or BR collector* (particularly since the latter format was introduced): every new release is supposed to be a variorum edition that's all things to all people with an image that's better than perfect. Some of the impetus for this sentiment is the concern that physical media (other than MOD discs, perhaps) are on the way out and that these editions are a sort of last chance for a perfect physical copy.

I make this observation because I recall that the Image, Kino and Milestone releases of 8 or 10 years ago rarely received so much criticism for their visuals. Indeed, the choice of score was the biggest sticking point back then (and that's a concern that's partly evaporated owing to the practice of putting multiple tracks on a disc or not hiring some of the truly unpopular accompanists). Do I remember wrongly?

-Harold

*and I speak as one!

[boblipton]

Not really the point, Harold. Can't anyone manage a thank you occasionally?

Bob

[Doug Sulpy]

I find it impossible to even contemplate what those 8 pages of densely argued complaints are about now. If Recreation is 2 fps too slow, or if they didn't use the best 16mm available from South America, I really find it hard to care when Recreation is, not to put too fine a point on it, lousy.

I don't find "Recreation" any better, or worse, than any of the "park" Chaplin Keystones. If you don't like the film, and consequently don't care if it looks like crap... well, fine. It obviously doesn't bother you that a company that's charging $80 for 4 DVDs can get away with mastering something from an 8mm print when superior sources were known (or should have been known) to be available. I hope you're not implying, however, that people who feel differently should shut up.

Personally, I support the issue of silent films by buying product. However, in return, I expect the people who provide that product to do the best job possible in putting it together. Consequently, if they don't, I want to know about it before spending my money.

[Mike Gebert]

Should they keep it quiet, no.

Can I think they should shut up and watch a damn movie as a movie before they reach page 8? That much, I do think, privately, late at night. I get the feeling that there are many people who own a copy of Chaplin at Keystone which has been exhaustively analyzed... but never watched.

I agree with Harold-- or as I often think of it, I doubt my precious heinie would be able to sit today through most of the murky, occasionally incomplete 16mm prints that I got my original film education on. We are so fortunate, as Bob suggests, are we grateful enough? Probably not.

Kino's The General is absolutely stunning. Crystal clear, three scores to choose from. Everyone should own it, watch it once a quarter, and just worship it. How much attention has it gotten for being so wonderfully fantastic?

[Rodney]

It obviously doesn't bother you that a company that's charging $80 for 4 DVDs can get away with mastering something from an 8mm print when superior sources were known (or should have been known) to be available. I hope you're not implying, however, that people who feel differently should shut up.

Personally, I support the issue of silent films by buying product. However, in return, I expect the people who provide that product to do the best job possible in putting it together. Consequently, if they don't, I want to know about it before spending my money.

I think the problem is that it's fine to note that Recreation should have been better, and where the better sources are. But one should ALSO note that A Film Johnnie and Tillie's Punctured Romance have never, ever been available in a better version on home video, and are unlikely to be improved on. Some positive reviews would be welcome. The "best job possible" may or may not in fact be possible on a project that is destined to lose money anyway.

When the boxed set came out, it was attacked by many who should have been praising the amount of effort exerted on it, and while some of the criticism was well founded, other criticism was totally unfounded. So several people posted saying that maybe they weren't going to buy it. That bugs the heck out of me. DVDs are on their way out. Look at the glass as being 98% full, not 2% empty.

[Doug Sulpy]

I think the problem is that it's fine to note that Recreation should have been better, and where the better sources are. But one should ALSO note that A Film Johnnie and Tillie's Punctured Romance have never, ever been available in a better version on home video, and are unlikely to be improved on. Some positive reviews would be welcome.

Like...
"The screen shots look fantastic!" (October 18th, 2010)
"'Between Showers' looks great!" (November 3rd, 2010)
"'Making a Living' looks... well, great!" (November 4th, 2010)
"I'm more than pleased with the vast majority of what I'm seeing here (even the speeds!)" (November 6th, 2010)
"Thanks to the much improved quality of "Mabel's Strange Predicament" on the recent Keystone DVDs..." (February 23rd, 2011)

As for Mike's post... well, I really don't know what to say. But from now on, I shall certainly make an attempt to watch films before I analyze them, and if and when I get around to watching the blu-ray of "The General," I'll make it a point to find the appropriate thread and say very nice things about it.

[Richard Warner]

As Rodney pointed out, it must be very difficult to match a score recorded for a different transfer of a different print to a new version. In the case of the Carl Davis scores for Our Hospitality and The General, these were done for the Kevin Brownlow - David Gill videotape transfers back in the 1980s. I may be wrong on this point, but Kevin and David may have used variable speeds for their transfers.
I've only just bought the new Kinos and watched The General for the first time yesterday. Yes, I did notice a little bit of "drift" early on, but all the important musical cues seemed to match well and I was soon so captivated by the wonderful print and the film itself that I failed to notice any further problems. I haven't had the chance to look at Our Hospitality all the way through, but I've viewed bits of it. The "drift" noted in this thread is certainty there, but, once again, really important cues seem to match. On the whole, I think that Kino did a difficult job pretty well. I'm a musician (retired) and if the "drift" doesn't really bother me, I doubt that the average viewer would even notice, especially if they hadn't seen the original Thames Silents versions. Certainly, the scores on the Kinos were far better matched than when I've heard Carl Davis conduct them live!
There are FAR worse examples of non-matching scores on Keaton DVDs. The mk2 - Cinema Club British release of The General has a nice, perfectly-matched score by Joe Hisaishi, but the second-choice Robert Israel score is dreadfully mismatched in places - important ones too.
On the British Buster Keaton Chronicles set, there are old Rohauer prints of Three Ages and Steamboat Bill Jr. "Ages" has the Lee Erwin score, "Steamboat" a stock library music and effects score - both hopelessly "out" on the actual prints themselves!
The most annoying problem of this kind that I know of is The Pawnshop on the BFI Mutual set. Carl Davis points up the action quite a bit in his score, but (on my copy at least) it's all slightly too late to match the on-screen action. Even casual viewers have noticed the problem. The other films in the set are fine and I'm wondering if this problem was fixed for the Image set.

[Rodney]

Last night I played about with the Club Foot Orchestra scores on the two releases of Sherlock Jr. (which is the film and score I have at hand), and found mixed, but generally positive results. The DVD version is the older Kino release (from the Art of Buster Keaton boxed set), the Blu-Ray is the recent release.

First off, it's obvious that the score was not merely an un-altered version of the old version -- considerable effort was made to fit the new score to the new video transfer.

The Club Foot score tracks very closely with the pool shots and reactions during the pool game, and syncs well in both versions. For the added trick shot in the Blu-Ray release, a percussion hit has been added -- no doubt taken from elsewhere in the scene -- so that the scenes ahead of and behind the new shot are still in perfect sync. This was very neatly done.

During the scene I remembered -- the "through the screen" sequence with changing backgrounds -- the music changes ahead of the background change, by maybe half a second, in both versions. So this is the same, and slightly puzzling. Don't know if it distracts the average viewer, but you've got the slack-key Hawaiian guitar kicking in before you see the ocean waves, and jingle bells before you see the snow. This is something I've always noticed, but I'm a musician who has synced this sequence live more than I care to mention, so it's something I pay attention to.

Interestingly, a scene where Sherlock Jr.'s finger, in close-up, presses a doorbell is way out of sync on the original DVD -- the doorbell sound happens over a second too soon, and finishes as he presses the button. This has been synced much better in the Blu-Ray, with the sound starting as he presses the button.

The rubberband effect when Buster rides his motorbike through the stag party was well-placed on the DVD, but comes early on the Blu-Ray. I didn't notice this until it was pointed out, but once pointed out, it's pretty clear what was intended. The rest of the chase is mostly non-specific music (curiously, the exploding log gets no "hit" in either version), and I noticed no problems.

Jimmy thought that the sync was three seconds off during the last part of the motorcycle chase, but that's not the case in my experience. Both seem to be almost the same. The big orchestra "hit" occurs not where Buster first turns around (and wobbles, which is also caught in the score), but when he finally stares at the camera full on, and it's pretty much the same on DVD and Blu-Ray. Shortly thereafter, after a cut-away to the action in the shed, the music in both versions is in sync with the picture when the action cuts back to Buster on the bike, though it differs by a very slight amount. Impossible to say whether one or the other is correct, they're both close enough.

All told, it's clear that there were timing differences between the two transfers, especially where new footage was added, but it also is clear that a lot of effort went into syncing the audio back up, including in at least one place where it was way off in the original. It's also obvious that not every sync point was fixed, but in my opinion, most of the important ones were. I can easily live with what's on the Blu-Ray version of the Club Foot score.

It would be really nice if budgets allowed these scores to be re-recorded for new releases (the Club Foot Orchestra is still around and active, and Mont Alto sounds better these days than it ever has and I'd love another stab at some of our early scores), but I fear that's generally not the case.

[Jimmy Shannon]

Last night I played about with the Club Foot Orchestra scores on the two releases of Sherlock Jr. (which is the film and score I have at hand), and found mixed, but generally positive results. The DVD version is the older Kino release (from the Art of Buster Keaton boxed set), the Blu-Ray is the recent release.

First off, it's obvious that the score was not merely an un-altered version of the old version -- considerable effort was made to fit the new score to the new video transfer.

The Club Foot score tracks very closely with the pool shots and reactions during the pool game, and syncs well in both versions. For the added trick shot in the Blu-Ray release, a percussion hit has been added -- no doubt taken from elsewhere in the scene -- so that the scenes ahead of and behind the new shot are still in perfect sync. This was very neatly done.

During the scene I remembered -- the "through the screen" sequence with changing backgrounds -- the music changes ahead of the background change, by maybe half a second, in both versions. So this is the same, and slightly puzzling. Don't know if it distracts the average viewer, but you've got the slack-key Hawaiian guitar kicking in before you see the ocean waves, and jingle bells before you see the snow. This is something I've always noticed, but I'm a musician who has synced this sequence live more than I care to mention, so it's something I pay attention to.

Interestingly, a scene where Sherlock Jr.'s finger, in close-up, presses a doorbell is way out of sync on the original DVD -- the doorbell sound happens over a second too soon, and finishes as he presses the button. This has been synced much better in the Blu-Ray, with the sound starting as he presses the button.

The rubberband effect when Buster rides his motorbike through the stag party was well-placed on the DVD, but comes early on the Blu-Ray. I didn't notice this until it was pointed out, but once pointed out, it's pretty clear what was intended. The rest of the chase is mostly non-specific music (curiously, the exploding log gets no "hit" in either version), and I noticed no problems.

Jimmy thought that the sync was three seconds off during the last part of the motorcycle chase, but that's not the case in my experience. Both seem to be almost the same. The big orchestra "hit" occurs not where Buster first turns around (and wobbles, which is also caught in the score), but when he finally stares at the camera full on, and it's pretty much the same on DVD and Blu-Ray. Shortly thereafter, after a cut-away to the action in the shed, the music in both versions is in sync with the picture when the action cuts back to Buster on the bike, though it differs by a very slight amount. Impossible to say whether one or the other is correct, they're both close enough.

All told, it's clear that there were timing differences between the two transfers, especially where new footage was added, but it also is clear that a lot of effort went into syncing the audio back up, including in at least one place where it was way off in the original. It's also obvious that not every sync point was fixed, but in my opinion, most of the important ones were. I can easily live with what's on the Blu-Ray version of the Club Foot score.

It would be really nice if budgets allowed these scores to be re-recorded for new releases (the Club Foot Orchestra is still around and active, and Mont Alto sounds better these days than it ever has and I'd love another stab at some of our early scores), but I fear that's generally not the case.

Thanks for the write up, Rodney. Very interesting, and encouraging to see the effort on their part. I knew they had to be doing adjustments, as they get Our Hospitality back in sync on major, obvious cues. In that case it was just the middle section of the film, starting at the dam scene, where it is way off, early by about three seconds, as described above. I'm pretty easy to please, as I loved their version of The General and did not notice any issues there, nor on the Lloyd films. As long as the score matches in the narrative and doesn't distract I am fine. Hospitality got distracting, because it is just way far early in several stretches in the middle.

The most interesting thing you said was about the motorcycle scene in Sherlock Jr. I have both the DVD and Blu Ray and my comparison shows a large difference there. On the DVD, the big "hit" coincides with Buster turning to look at the camera. On the BD, it happens well before that, when Buster is just sitting on the bike and not doing anything to justify that musical sting at all. Is it possible they fixed this at some point and I have an older copy? Maybe I can upload a clip to YouTube to show you what I mean.