Sting Shuts Down Illegal DVD Merchants

missdupont · Post by **missdupont** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:15 am

Thanks to Paypal sharing information with the MPA, dozens of illegal Asian merchants were shut down that sell illegal DVDS with payments on Paypal.

http://www.deadline.com/2011/06/mpa-pay ... c-pirates/

Marr&Colton · Post by **Marr&Colton** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:27 pm

While I agree that bootleggers are certainly wrong, and I wouldn't buy from them, I have strong feelings about Paypal:

Paypal, like eBay has gotten greedy and seller-unfriendly.
I have recently discontinued all Paypal transactions as well as eBay selling.

Their fees for sellers are outrageous, and recently they instituted a 21 day hold on sellers proceeds to protect them against chargebacks--but insist the seller still ship the merchandise immediately.

I have found that there are lots of forums on the internet where items can be sold without Paypal getting their hands in your pockets!

milefilms · Post by **milefilms** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:08 pm

Marr&Colton wrote:I have recently discontinued all Paypal transactions as well as eBay selling.
This is just another example of their over-reach and lack of confidentiality.
Their fees for sellers are outrageous, and recently they instituted a 21 day hold on sellers proceeds to protect them against chargebacks--but insist the seller still ship the merchandise immediately.
I have found that there are lots of forums on the internet where items can be sold without Paypal getting their hands in your pockets!

Really, this is what you get from this article? How 'bout white slavers, arms dealers and drug dealers? Their privacy should be protected as well by Paypal?

Sorry, but for you Nitratevillusians there's a less silent films put out the past few years by the legit distributors because of illegal sales and downloading. Not that most silent film sales are that big, but the profits from the more commercial films supports the risk-taking.

ColemanShedman · Post by **ColemanShedman** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:48 pm

Dennis,

I'm sure you're right but what is a fan supposed to do? I just ordered three films from Milestone today and am patiently awaiting the return of Sparrows (any word on Sparrows BTW?

). If you or anyone released The Big Parade, Wings, Four Horsemen..., or The Wind (just to name a few) tomorrow, I'd order them too regardless of whether I have an "illegal" copy (not that I do personally but I know people like that are out there) or not. I guess what I'm asking is should people never be able to see these films because no one will release them? There will always be people who try to "get over" but I think the majority would rather have a legitimate release from a reputable company, even if they do have to pay more.

missdupont · Post by **missdupont** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:45 pm

If you read Dennis' post, the more illegal copies are sold and out there, the less reason for copyright owners to put out legitimate copies because they can't cover their costs. The record business went down the tubes because of all the illegal downloading and file sharing, and if people keep doing the same with films, there won't be any reason for legitimate business to allow downloading or streaming of films. The same could eventually happen for books, television, etc. The illegal downloading is not only stealing profits from copyright holders, but residuals/retirement money for aging/ailing individuals. They end up with nothing when people do this. Would you want that to happen to you?

Marr&Colton · Post by **Marr&Colton** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:59 pm

I have a question: Aren't MOST silent movies (especially pre-1923) in the Public Domain now? If a film is in the Public Domain, then it is legal to duplicate and sell.

Any major video company would have an advantage and greater marketability to release excellent quality transfers of silents over the usual dark, soft and poor quality from the smaller distributors.

I only buy from the major distributors anyways. WHO would want a bootleg anyways, if they wanted to see a decent, sharp picture on the screen?

ymmv · Post by **ymmv** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:10 pm

Bootleggers can only profit when there are no official releases to buy. I got my copy of The Crowd from a Chinese seller on Ebay. I think it's a bootleg (although it's also on sale at Amazon). The quality isn't that great, I'd rather have an official release. But on the other hand, that was a couple of years ago and The Crowd is still unavailable in the US and Europe. So what do you want people to do?

Personally, release *any* silent film (Sparrows! Any other Mary Pickford movie!) on Blu-Ray and I'll buy 'em. I'll support you guys.

ColemanShedman · Post by **ColemanShedman** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:45 pm

First of all, lets say I go to amazon, type in "The Big Parade"...there it is...1 new for 22.99. How am I supposed to know if it is a bootleg? I can see it is an import. So what. So is a lot of stuff. Who thinks they are breaking the law buying something from amazon? Am I supposed to be the DVD police now? Look...The Crowd, Wings... Someone thinks it is worthwhile to sell them...not sure how many they're selling but they're getting over 20 bucks each.

I got a copy of a Hitchcock film (forget which one....was on amazon) a few years back. Think it was from Korea. At the time, it wasn't out on DVD in the US. When it came out in the US, I bought it again. Is there any real data that "bootlegging" is really harming the Silent Film on DVD industry? Are people really hanging on to their crummy copies with cheesy (or no) scores when legitmate releases come out? Heck, I taped The Phantom Carriage off TCM the other night. I'm still going to order the blu ray when it comes out. I can understand that we are a niche market but there are films we can't even get an "official" DVD-R of. Are you telling me not enough people would pay (even a premium) for an official DVD-R copy of the restored Wings, for example? If that is the case, how can Warner Archive afford to release much less well known titles?

Richard P. May · Post by **Richard P. May** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:59 pm

I looked at the Amazon posting on THE BIG PARADE. There is one customer review, and it says it was recorded from broadcast, with the Carl Davis score.
I don't know what you call it when somebody makes such a recording, gives it decent packaging, then a company like Amazon sells it like a new, legitimate, item.
There are also several VHS copies on Amazon. The picture was sold in this format years ago, and I guess these are just leftovers.
There has not been any release of the 2004 restoration. It is showing on July 18 at the Academy's Goldwyn Theater in Beverly Hills, with Kevin Brownlow doing an introduction. This is a 35mm tinted print, with the Davis score played via recording. It's very impressive on a big screen.

All Darc · Post by **All Darc** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:11 pm

Mr May, Warner should hurry up the Blu Ray of Roman Holiday, cause there are already some "Blu Rays" on line for this film.
People who recorded from HD broadcast...

Maybe TV stations should not receive HD tapes for broadcast, before a blu ray of a given film it's ready.

ColemanShedman · Post by **ColemanShedman** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:18 pm

I just picked The Big Parade out of a hat. Anyway, I don't always read the reviews...didn't know it was a requirement. The bigger point is if they can show it at the Academy Theater, why not at least slap it on a DVD-r so people who will never get a chance to see it can see it? One would think it at least as worthwhile as "The Better 'Ole", which I can order now through Warner Archive. (Sorry, Better 'Ole fans...just picked one I'd never heard of).

Jim Reid · Post by **Jim Reid** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 8:28 pm

All Darc wrote:Mr May, Warner should hurry up the Blu Ray of Roman Holiday,

Warner doesn't own Roman Holiday. That's a Paramount title.

I'm not buying this "They won't release it, so I have to buy from bootleggers!"

This forum is filled with old posts telling us that a certain title would "never" be released on DVD, only to have those officially released DVDs in my collection now. I'm not sure where the idea that you have a right to own any film you want RIGHT NOW came from.

"If the studios don't release it, they force me to deal with thieves."

boblipton · Post by **boblipton** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 8:37 pm

I would like to remind all Nitratevillains that the Internet is a public place and that records never go away here. If there is anyone here who has purchased bootleg dvds, they should be aware that this is a criminal activity before writing about it here.

Bob

ColemanShedman · Post by **ColemanShedman** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:03 pm

Good point Bob. Which begs the question why doesn't anyone go after amazon or eBay for selling this stuff?

mndean · Post by **mndean** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:42 pm

boblipton wrote:I would like to remind all Nitratevillains that the Internet is a public place and that records never go away. here. If there is anyone here who has purchased bootleg dvds, they should be aware that this is a criminal activity before writing about it here.

Bob

How would someone know they were involved in criminal activity if the dvd wasn't an obvious bootleg? Art and other things down to the FBI warning can be copied or faked convincingly. I've seen some dvds that for all outward appearance legit releases. N.B. I didn't buy them, I just have seen some that were ultimately not legit but I certainly couldn't tell from looking at the package. Conversely, I have seen some releases with cheesy artwork and cheap packaging that were legit. These I mention were not PD titles, either. Back in the VHS days a number of illegitimate releases would pop up, then just disappear after awhile. All sold in local/national video chains. I am not an investigator, prosecutor, or any sort of lawyer, yet I am expected to know every bootleg on sight and to turn away? That is a risible position to take.

As far as the earlier assertion of losses from piracy preventing release of classic titles, I would need to see objective evidence there is enough loss from piracy to keep a studio from releasing or licensing a release. I haven't as yet. For releases of recent hits, I believe piracy is a major problem as that is what I have seen pirated almost exclusively.

Jim Reid · Post by **Jim Reid** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:15 pm

It's really not that hard to find out if something has had a legal release. If you buy The Big Parade, unless it's on VHS or laserdisc, it's a bootleg.

ColemanShedman · Post by **ColemanShedman** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:29 pm

Jim, how would the average person possibly know that? Why would the average person buying something from amazon even think they are doing something illegal?

Someone should tell the College of William and Mary that the DVD copy from Media Asia Group they have in their Earl Gregg Swem Library is a bootleg.

https://catalog.swem.wm.edu/Record/3232662

Harold Aherne · Post by **Harold Aherne** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:55 pm

Jim Reid wrote:It's really not that hard to find out if something has had a legal release. If you buy The Big Parade, unless it's on VHS or laserdisc, it's a bootleg.

Usually true for big-studio product, decidedly less so for smaller companies. Renewal on the DeMille films released through PDC and Pathé from 1925-28 was very inconsistent; you'd have to check the Film Superlist to know the status of a given title. Likewise, the copyright research I've seen on the Our Gang comedies reveals that few or none of them from 1922 to about the fall of 1926 were renewed, but most after that date were.

RKO dropped the ball on several 1930-31 releases like Half Shot at Sunrise and Kept Husbands. A few of Norma Talmadge's post-1922 films were renewed, but none of Constance's were. Universal renewed its 1925 remake of Raffles, but not Phantom of the Opera.

The 1934 Babes in Toyland was renewed. Independent distributors sometimes treat the film as PD, however, because it was re-copyrighted in 1950 under its new title and that registration wasn't renewed. Are all video releases of the title other than the MGM/UA really pirated? Couldn't say.

The point, as made evident by David Pierce's research in his article "Forgotten Faces: Why Some of Our Cinema Heritage is Part of the Public Domain", is that what got renewed and what didn't was at times a very arbitrary matter. And it also accounts for why particular films from the same studio in the same year are on opposite sides of the availability fence.

-Harold

Shaynes3 · Post by **Shaynes3** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 9:40 am

boblipton wrote:I would like to remind all Nitratevillains that the Internet is a public place and that records never go away here. If there is anyone here who has purchased bootleg dvds, they should be aware that this is a criminal activity before writing about it here.

Bob

I'm not at all sure that a buyer is reponsible for a criminal act if the seller is the one breaking the law. As others point out, there is no way a buyer can BE SURE that what they are buying is not a legitimate item (they may have suspicions, but that's not the same thing.)

As far as the "protection of copyright" goes, we have strayed so far from the original conception of protecting creative rights then allowing artistic works to fall to public use, and that straying has been mostly due to the usual morality-free and insatiable corporate greed, that I have no sympathy at all for those who get their "rights" violated. How many cases actually protect the creative individual(s) or their families and not corporations. I'd wager the percentage is in the single digits...

While what should happen is a reversal of ALL of the copyright extensions back to the original terms, a step in the right direction would be to REQUIRE copyright holders to make their books, music, films, etc available via an affordable means to those who want to read, hear, view, etc them, or lose their copyright. Another possibility whould be for shorter term extensions (maybe 5 or even 3 yerar increments) at dramatically increased (and increasing) cost. That might keep the money-grubbers from protecting stuff "just in case!"

moviepas · Post by **moviepas** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:12 am

i agree about bootlegs but the Chinese are masters at it. I don't know how many Criterion titles I have been show. Sure they work but only for the film. The extras stay unopenable. You would think of they could rip the feature the lot is can be ripped. I just love those covers and labels that I have seen people bring back from trips to China. Thin paper cover with a plastic sleeve. The slick is often detailing the synopsis of a totally different film. It happened with CD and tapes and now DVDs or VCDs. In my country there is always a good supply of the most recent release of a Hollywood blockbuster before the theatres schedule them. All seems to stop midway thru the closing credits and often with audience heads. I try to sell on my mother's market stall on a Sunday a few duplicates and get difficult customers and often no sale but they buy from the Chinese. Next week they are back looking for the Chinese because they don't work right. The Chinese are nowhere to be seen. Police have made raids and court appearances have happened with large fines but they still do it. Shopping center malls, in the street outside a shop and in theater doorways. And people buy from them too every classic title you can think of. They don't come to my local enclosed complex which I suspect is because management clear them out. The Chinese have the run of legitimate shops & kiosks, though. The chains, particularly dress shops have at least one Chinese inside, as it is put. It does make me angry that people will forget quality for price and then otherwise deride the Chinese being in the community!!!!

ColemanShedman · Post by **ColemanShedman** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:36 am

I work at a Navy base. You should see the stuff the guys bring back...current features taped right off the screen.

All Darc · Post by **All Darc** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:53 pm

Hey, I did not said that I was in favor of such piracy !!!

I just try to say that a good release it's a good way to try avoid piracy.

Oops, I mixed up things about the studio... Yes, it's Paramnount, and they did a very good and expansive digital restoration for Roman Holiday, using modern image enhancement tools to make a 2 generations grainy soft look master look very good...
They only noticed they had no camera negative for this film when they look for when decided to make a DVD years ago.

Jim Reid wrote:
All Darc wrote:Mr May, Warner should hurry up the Blu Ray of Roman Holiday,
Warner doesn't own Roman Holiday. That's a Paramount title.

I'm not buying this "They won't release it, so I have to buy from bootleggers!"

This forum is filled with old posts telling us that a certain title would "never" be released on DVD, only to have those officially released DVDs in my collection now. I'm not sure where the idea that you have a right to own any film you want RIGHT NOW came from.

"If the studios don't release it, they force me to deal with thieves."

Post by **silentfilm** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 4:17 pm

When I was working in Lagos, Nigeria in 2009, DVD versions of American films were being sold on the street the same week that they were released theatrically in the USA. And the films had not been released in Africa yet.

Organized crime is definitely involved in bootlegging DVDs.

moglia · Post by **moglia** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:37 am

Sting Shuts Down Illegal DVD Merchants

Guess now that the Police re-union tour is over he has the time, but isn't he getting a little old for that type of activity?

Gagman 66 · Post by **Gagman 66** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:25 pm

Richard P. May wrote:I looked at the Amazon posting on THE BIG PARADE. There is one customer review, and it says it was recorded from broadcast, with the Carl Davis score.
I don't know what you call it when somebody makes such a recording, gives it decent packaging, then a company like Amazon sells it like a new, legitimate, item.
There are also several VHS copies on Amazon. The picture was sold in this format years ago, and I guess these are just leftovers.
There has not been any release of the 2004 restoration. It is showing on July 18 at the Academy's Goldwyn Theater in Beverly Hills, with Kevin Brownlow doing an introduction. This is a 35mm tinted print, with the Davis score played via recording. It's very impressive on a big screen.

What's more besides no release of any kind so far, is that it hasn't been shown on TCM yet either and the 2004 restoration is 7 years old! The Thames version was also released on MGM Laser-disc back in 1989. I'm glad that it's getting a screening at AMPAS and with the Carl Davis score. In March 2005 it was screened with Robert Israel and a 19 piece Orchestra reprising the original 1925 Axt-Mendoza score. Which I still hoped would be recorded someday.

Michael O'Regan · Post by **Michael O'Regan** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:26 pm

moglia wrote:Sting Shuts Down Illegal DVD Merchants

Guess now that the Police re-union tour is over he has the time, but isn't he getting a little old for that type of activity?

Awwww.....you beat me to it. I couldn't come up with anything funny enough

missdupont · Post by **missdupont** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:35 am

I used to work at a film studio and I can tell you this is a big problem. 6-7 years ago, studios started sending studio security to advance screenings. They stop every person, make them go through metal detectors, confiscate any cell/smart phones or cameras till after the screenings, and walk around with infrared cameras looking for people illegally copying films. We would even watermark DVDs of final presentations going overseas so if they disappeared, bootlegs could be traced to which tape they came from and then tracing back until they found the source. All rough features going to post/trailer houses have time code, chyron, etc. all through them so that bootlegs can be tracked of those. The MPAA would inspect all trailer/post houses for how exact security was and there were standards that had to be met or they couldn't work with the materials. Dubbers were caught at post houses when they had passed on features for bootlegging. Some only did state time, others federal, as well as fines. As Bruce said, bootlegs appear during the week of opening release. And for those of you thinking that buying bootlegs sticks it to the studios, it actually sticks it to the middle class/lower rung employees who get laid off, etc. because of less money coming in so less employees are needed. It also takes away retirement money, living money for older and retired actors, technicians, etc., so in effect, you are actually screwing them.

rollot24 · Post by **rollot24** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:43 am

missdupont wrote: 6-7 years ago, studios started sending studio security to advance screenings. They stop every person, make them go through metal detectors, confiscate any cell/smart phones or cameras till after the screenings,

I think one time thy even confiscated Spielberg's cell phone. You just can't trust anybody these days.

WaverBoy · Post by **WaverBoy** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:35 pm

Shaynes3 wrote:
boblipton wrote:I would like to remind all Nitratevillains that the Internet is a public place and that records never go away here. If there is anyone here who has purchased bootleg dvds, they should be aware that this is a criminal activity before writing about it here.

Bob
I'm not at all sure that a buyer is reponsible for a criminal act if the seller is the one breaking the law. As others point out, there is no way a buyer can BE SURE that what they are buying is not a legitimate item (they may have suspicions, but that's not the same thing.)

You're right, and Bob is both hilariously over-the-top and wrong. You can't get busted for buying a boot DVD.

"But, officer, I bought my DVD of THE BIG PARADE from Amazon, a reputable seller!"

"Don't lie to me kid, I know you got it from Big-Nose Capelli on the streetcorner. You're comin' downtown with me."

boblipton · Post by **boblipton** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:42 pm

I'm not saying that buying a bootleg dvd that you don't know is bootleg means you're going to spend the next 15 years to life in Atlanta. I'm saying that you should use appropriate language given that anything written here never goes away.

Bob

Sting Shuts Down Illegal DVD Merchants

Sting Shuts Down Illegal DVD Merchants

Bootlegs